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Mounted a heatsink under the distributor

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Patrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mounted a heatsink under the distributor
    Posted: 27 October 2008 at 1:08am

As reported Here, I was recently stranded with a cooked ignition module.

Not wanting to go through this process again, I searched the PFF archives for ways of cooling down the ignition module on my '86 GT. Although I found posts from PFF members talking about the possiblility of using heatsinks mounted on the underside of the distributor, I was surprised that I didn't actually find any posts by someone who had done it. I obviously then wasn't able to find any pictures of a modified distributor to see how it might've been accomplished.

So I did it my way.

I used a heatsink from some ancient CPU that was about the right size for the job. Longer cooling fins might've been better, but you gotta use what you have on hand.

I ground down all bumps on either side of the distributor base, and drilled large enough holes for machine screws to pass through. I then drilled and tapped the heatsink to accept the four screws, two of which go through the ignition module as well. Thermal paste was applied to the underside of the ignition module as well as to the topside of the heatsink.

The way I assembled everything, the ignition module can still be changed with the distributor in the engine. Hoping I won't have to do it again though.

Yes, the screws look goofy sticking down so far, but I figure the more surface area the better for cooling. They won't even be noticeable once the distributor is installed.

If you have any questions, I'd be pleased to answer them.

I noticed afterwards how much the camera flash shows up the ground aluminum dust on the heatsink in some of the shots!



Edited by Patrick
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marcelvdgn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote marcelvdgn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2008 at 8:11pm

Patrick

i really like what youve done

i have a box of old cpu chips heatsinks somewhere

goin to find them and rebuild a spare distributor

Marcel

Marcel 86SE V6 Auto
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2008 at 11:17pm

Thanks Marcel.

This is something I've wanted to do with the GT ever since I bought it earlier in the year. I know the reputation the V6 has for eating ignition modules in Fieros, so I'm hoping this will extend the module's lifespan. Can't hurt!

And here she is all buttoned up, ready for AirCare tomorrow.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 11:41am
    I have been meaning to post these for months. Here is the one that I have, its pretty much the same principal as what you have done. The dist shaft is completely rebuilt and polished on my wire wheel to make it nice and shiny. I did not install the heat sink, an ex club member that worked for Air Canada did the work in a machine shop using a mill. I just did the finishing touches to it blending the seems and stuff.

I am really tempted to go one step further and wire up a small 4cm computer fan to the heat sink, and power it via the 12v lead from the ignition system. Not sure if it would do a darn thing, but is an idea.





















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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 5:04pm

Originally posted by Capt Fiero Capt Fiero wrote:

I did not install the heat sink, an ex club member that worked for Air Canada did the work in a machine shop using a mill.

That looks really nice Dave, much more "refined" than mine.

Oh, how I wish I had a shop and proper tools to play with!  

I fabricated mine with nothing more than a handheld electic drill out in the carport.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 5:07pm
I wasn't going to open up this can of worms, but...  WTF.  :D

Remember that a heat sink works both ways. It can displace heat - it can also absorb it!

If the heat in the engine bay (or at least the air pocket right there beside the toasty exhaust manifold) gets hotter than the ignition module, you will start to drive heat INTO the module instead of pulling it out!  This would be a good reason for a fan (remember the factory one that almost everyone pulled out on the early V6 cars?).  It'll have to be a pretty robust one though, or you'll be swapping them out monthly.

I still like the idea of extending the pickup wires, and mounting the module onto a heatsink/fan and stuffing it into the trunk.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 5:27pm

Originally posted by Dr.Fiero Dr.Fiero wrote:

I wasn't going to open up this can of worms, but...  WTF.  :D

Remember that a heat sink works both ways. It can displace heat - it can also absorb it!

If the heat in the engine bay (or at least the air pocket right there beside the toasty exhaust manifold) gets hotter than the ignition module, you will start to drive heat INTO the module instead of pulling it out! 

All valid points John, but...

GM wouldn't have mounted the ignition module on the aluminum base of the distributor if the heat in the engine compartment was hotter than the module. They put it there for a particular reason - to dissipate heat from the module out through the bottom of the distributor. Otherwise they would’ve insulated the module instead.

In essence, the aluminum base of the distributor is a simple heatsink.

I combed through the archives at PFF about this before I tried my little experiment. I came across at least one post which stated that the ignition module gets VERY hot, much hotter than the ambient temperature under a Fiero's decklid.

Of course, it certainly doesn't hurt to have the EGR tube blocked off or removed or well insulated to reduce heat in that particular area.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2009 at 11:29am

Well this is a good time to bring this thread back to life.

  Its been a year for me, and I am thinking about the same for you Patrick.   Have you burned up an ignition module yet?  

If the heat sink was drawing IN heat from the exhaust and causing early failure, our modules should have failed by now.  I installed mine with a used module and still no failure, how bout yours?    Heck my dist is now running in a 2nd motor as a test mule and still no issues. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2009 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Capt Fiero Capt Fiero wrote:

Its been a year for me, and I am thinking about the same for you Patrick.   Have you burned up an ignition module yet?

No Dave, it's been just over a year and there have been no problems at all. I've been very pleased with the modification.

I should add that eight months ago I reinstalled my EGR tube and therefore added a bit more heat to the distributor area. My ignition module and I survived the hot summer months unscathed.

Originally posted by Patrick Patrick wrote:

Of course, it certainly doesn't hurt to have the EGR tube blocked off or removed or well insulated to reduce heat in that particular area.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2009 at 11:23pm

 

 We'll we will see if Damien finds a way to mass produce the heat sink distributors and if not, I'll start adapting them to all the ones at the house.  If it saves me even one trip out to go and rescue, Lisa, Shirley or Tim broke down at the side of the road, it'll be worth it enough for me.  At $100 per module, and costs in fuel, several times a year. (combined for all the cars) I think a new type dist might be looking like a great idea.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Romeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 12:06pm
Has anyone also considered using a liquid cooling system? Might help matters as well, I know that's what people do to computers and electrical circuits when they want them very, very cold.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 5:50pm

Originally posted by Romeo Romeo wrote:

Has anyone also considered using a liquid cooling system?

Great idea, Tristan! We'll run some long wires and screw the ignition module to the radiator.

Actually, after thinking about it for a minute... How about some kind of metal mount for the ignition module that attaches in some manner to the metal coolant return pipe near the passenger side of the engine? The coolant coming back from the radiator is probably no more than 200 F (probably a lot less), and this would be a whole lot cooler than the extreme localized heat that the module itself produces.

Hmmmm, the wheels are turning...

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Car-2-Lo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Patrick Patrick wrote:

Originally posted by Romeo Romeo wrote:

Has anyone also considered using a liquid cooling system?


Great idea, Tristan! We'll run some long wires and screw the ignition module to the radiator.


Actually, after thinking about it for a minute... How about some kind of metal mount for the ignition module that attaches in some manner to the
metal coolant return pipe near the passenger side of the engine? The coolant coming back from the radiator is probably no more than 200 F (probably a
lot less), and this would be a whole lot cooler than the extreme localized heat that the module itself produces.


Hmmmm, the wheels are turning...


 



That's so gnarley !

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 7:33pm

I think what you guys are looking for called a "water block"  its what the home water cooling CPU kits use.  It has a flat metal surface for attaching to your CPU and then 2 hoses come off of it to your computers radiator and water pump.  (yes some computers have radiators and water pumps)  I thought about installing a kit like that in my large server tower.  The main reason for home kits is not for extreme cooling, but no fans means no noise and the better water pumps are silent.  So your computer is silent.

     I really don't think we need to go to the extent of using our cars cooling system to cool our ignition modules though.  It might work and function, however with so much extra stuff needing to be added and hooked up, I honestly don't think it would be worth it in the long run.

 

http://www.dangerden.com/store/new-products.php

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 8:27pm

Originally posted by Capt Fiero Capt Fiero wrote:

I really don't think we need to go to the extent of using our cars cooling system to cool our ignition modules though.

We probably don't need to go to the extent of putting V8s in Fieros either, but does that stop everyone?

Dave, if it hasn't already been done, someone someday will try using their car's cooling system to cool their ignition module. It's such a crazy idea it might just work!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 9:07pm
Yeah, guys, the cooling water idea wouldn't work. The p-n junction of the transistors which are trying to dissipate power would have to get way hotter than the 200F starting point...poof.

Now, a nice liquid hydrogen cooled substrate...now you're talking!

Dr. Fiero makes a good point...time to read up on black body radiation basics again!

The transistor junction temperature is linked to the ambient through a 'thermal impedance' which takes into account all the things like junction to case, case to heat sink, heat sink to ambient impedance values. By adding the improved heat sink you've lowered the heat sink to ambient  impedance.

Given that we think of the air around the dist as cooler than the ignition module there should be a modest improvement in transistor junction temperature, given a constant thermal output from the module. I think it probably produces less heat at low rpm (Less switching), but not that much less.

Worth a try though eh?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by CFoss CFoss wrote:

The transistor junction temperature is linked to the ambient through a 'thermal impedance' which takes into account all the things like junction to case, case to heat sink, heat sink to ambient impedance values.

That's so gnarley! (Sorry, Tristan and John forced me to say that.)

Originally posted by CFoss CFoss wrote:

Yeah, guys, the cooling water idea wouldn't work. The p-n junction of the transistors which are trying to dissipate power would have to get way hotter than the 200F starting point...poof.

So Chay, how does that differ from the module sitting on the base of the distributor (with or without an added heat sink)? Wouldn't "heat soak" from the hot air under the decklid do the same thing, especially if the engine is restarted shortly after being turned off on a hot summer's day?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dawg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 10:52pm
Hmmmm....All this seems a little overboard.....:)

Oh I know....a Peltier Junction would be simple and would work.

But still overkill....

Google it, you'll like it.

DG

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Post Options Post Options   Quote marcelvdgn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2009 at 11:30pm

buy or scroung an old working portable 12volt coleman cooler/heater and tear it apart.

Has all you need including the circuitry, heat sink and the peltier exchanger. plug it into your lighter  and your good to go 

M

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Romeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 12:01pm

Originally posted by Car-2-Lo Car-2-Lo wrote:


That's so gnarley !


Oh, I see what you did there...

But yeah Patty, I think you've probably seen what I mean, liquid cooling systems, even very tiny ones, are often regarded as superior to heatsinks.

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