After haggling over price for half a year I finally got my Buick 3800 tpi home and out of it's car. I plan to install the engine and it's 4 speed auto into my 85 2m4.

I'd like to here from anybody that may have advice on this swap.

Uhm advice.  Hmm, slap a big fat turbo on it. :)

That engine looks very nice and will make a great addition to your car. I can't wait to see it up and running.  Will have to take me for a boot in it when it is done. 

 I have the tubo in the 3.8 T type Riv that I have to bring back

from the Island. I think it will work good on this engine

The engine is from a 93 regal. It's a 3800 series 1 tpi 170hp 220 t

with a thm4t60e trans.

It should be an improvement over the duke tm125c combo.

I've started designing the mounts to install engine\trans onto the cradle. With all the problems of rubber mounts and the expense of ploy mounts I'm starting to think that solid mounting is the way to go. It's the same amount of work but gives me more room for stronger mounts. The cradle mounts should dampen vibration.

What are the down sides of solid mounting to the cradle?

Are there drive line problems that develop from solid mounting on Fieros

I opted to go with mounts that fit the stock Fiero setup. I used a Isuzu to locate engine mount position and made a heavy duty mount for it. Now I can reinstall the 4t60 trans and setup for the trans mounts.

I couldn't handle the dirty trans so off to U-blast it when't

Here is a couple pics of the trans mounts for the 4t60-E. Look at how close the trans is to the cradle. I made the mounts fit the stock rubbers but will be going to polys.

I'm now working on the wiring harness for the 3800. I came across a cool site that I thought I would share. It's dtcc.cz28.com  It has a lot of good Fiero engine swap info including pinout diagrams for ecms.

If anyone knows of any other sites like this one, please post.

 I can have it in a car by tomorrow but without axles ,fuel ,exhaust ,and power it's a long push.

I am hard at work on the wiring harness. I think that this is going to take the longest.

Anybody have a wiring diagram for a 93 Regal 3800 tpi ?

I finished reworking the wiring harness to fit in a Fiero and reinstalled it on the engine.( Thanks to Gold Key Pontiac for unlimited access to there books and Captain Fiero for some pin diagrams.) I also finished the new front belt drive setup with AC and power steering delete. Now it's time to reinforce the cradle so it can handle the torque of the 3800 engine

If there is any body looking to do an engine swap Langley Discount Used Parts LTD. has a 3800 series 2 supercharged engine with low KM for $2,000. Do you wont to go fast?

3800tpi swap update.          ;           ;           ;           ;           ;           ;      My backup car is going to Dale's and aircare next weekend and then I can pull my 85 off the road and start installing the new motor.        The 3800 is as fare as I can go out of the car. The rear suspension is all rebuilt, all mounts and bushings are polyed up. While I have the car off the road it will be getting a full front end rebuild and Grand Am brake upgrade as well.

Half way done. The engine bay is painted and heat shielded. I installed the engine 30 min. ago and so far things look good.

That's what you've been doing!!!

Awesome, Awesome, and more Awesome

FieroZen

I started hooking up the engine. The dog bone mount turned out to be easy. Just take the stock mount from the Regal and stack it on top of the belt tensioner bracket. It lined up with the stock body mount and was the right fit for a dickman adjustable dog bone.

The throttle just required welding the 4cyl. throttle mount on to the 3800 throttle bracket at the proper distance. It is the 4cyl. cable being used.

On the shifter cable I opted for a reverse shift pattern over running the cable tight to the exhaust manifold. The cable will last much longer but requires changing the shifter lockout. I plan to mod. a ratchet shifter to fit at a later date. The bracket was made by welding the stock cable mount to the 3800 bracket. The lever has been shortened to match the Fiero shifter though.

I made a short shifter for my 3800 4sp auto. To keep the heat off the linkage the shift pattern is reverse. LED lights indicate the gear selected through the trans selector switch.

Well it's like this, after more than 4 weeks waiting for my exhaust tubing which I paid for. I was informed my MOPAC that they have not even bothered to order the stock item! When I asked to talk to the manager he would not come out to see me. They promised that I would have it in two weeks but all I get is a refund if it's not here by then.

THIS IS THERE IDEA OF CUSTOMER SERVICE?

I have managed to get a lot done on the car and will be updating my build thread soon.

7 weeks have past and no exhaust pipe. Mopac ordered them on the 2 of Dec. 42 days after I paid for the stock item. The manager Rick will not get of his ars and talk to me about there customer service. I will keep shopping there when I have to but plan on being more of a pain in there ars than ever.

My axles are in the car now with rebuilt rear suspension featuring new ball joints,tie rods and poly bushings. The left axle is from a 94 Beretta with a 3100/4t60e. The right axle I had custom made with the help of Orbit Machine ltd and H&F Gear ltd. The new shaft measures 15" total length and in made from a nearly indestructible steel. GM options are ether 1" to short or 1" to long. The stock cv and tri pod mount to the shaft using the stock clips.

The front suspension has been totally rebuilt. All wearing parts have been replaced and the steering rack has been rebuilt as well. The brakes have been updated to vented Grand AM rotor ($20.00)caliper ($19.50) combo thanks to Edgars hubs.

I decided to use steel brade for the fuel lines. Russell had the adapters to hook up to the fuel rails and the stock fuel filter. This will make it much easier to replace the filter. The air tube is a 3 1/2" turbo compatible hose that can be had at almost any auto parts store. The improved Regal air filter housing was a direct fit.

The store is eating all of my time and some. I'm hoping that I will be able to get working on it again by mid. January and if all goes well, drive it to the Feb. meeting. This is if I ever get the exhaust pipe I ordered from Mopac. One of my brake line fittings is seized and twisted so I think I am going to install a Fiero Store ss brake like kit while the car is apart. The guy that is suppling the passkey eliminator kit just sent out a second one as the first one never made it. So as you can see there is some things still to go.

Ps: I can't wait to be finished this install and start my sb 283 install. It should be much less work.

I've installed the Fiero Store stainless steel brake line kit. This is the second time I have used there kit and both were a perfect fit. This completes my suspension and brake upgrades and the car is back on it's wheels with 225-50-15s all the way around.

The new fuel pump is installed and the engine grounds have been made including a night switch tucked into the hole by the dog bone mount.

Ps: The engine starts quick and purrs like a kitten in your ear. ( I still have no exhaust system.) Every thing else is done.

As for what kind of numbers I expect, with twice the HP and twice torque of the Duke that the car had. I think it will be faster and maybe even better mpg. I can always use a turbo to go faster later if I feel the need for speed.

We have a club member that has two series 2 3800tpi engines for sale at a good price. The install is almost the same as the one I've done here.

The stock trans should be able to handle as much power as your likely to through at it. Cryo treating the clutch hubs will help but it's likely that a $2.00 item will be what kills your trans. For the price of a used trans you can go through a lot of stockers before you get to the price of a race trans.

As for the L67 Langley Discount Used Auto & Truck Parts ( 604-533-0122 ) has one with low km. They sold the blower to a Lotus guy but a blower can be had on E-Bay for around $600. I think they wont about $1,200. for the engine.

There is also a series 1 on Craig's list complete for that price. 

The exhaust system is built and installed in the car finally. I made it from 2 1/2" mandrel bent pipe and a Moroso spiral type muffler. The whole system is the shape of a saxophone and not much bigger. I ordered a stainless steel Bora twin slash cut tip to keep the 2m4 look but the engine sounds more like a v8 than a Duke.

I used a modified Fiero exhaust hanger to support the system on the right side. On the left I cut the clamp off and welded a 2 1/2" clamp on. The pipe is wrapped with exhaust wrap between the engine and muffler to control heat in the packed engine bay.

I can atest to the beautiful exhaust note from this car.

Heard it this morning. look out ....you wont know what hit you.

Very nice workmanship Blair!!!!!!!!!!

Crossover pipe? Cat? What is in the pics is the whole exhaust. The engine is from a front wheel drive car so the manifold exits in the rear. Installing the exhaust in the way I did significantly lowers the heat in the engine bay. The engine also breaths better even with only one tip. Infarct it may breath too good for the tune ports fuel calibration.

On a side note, I had a stumble when the engine was revving up so I installed a new mass air flow sensor and wow. It now has some attitude.

Here is a pic of the left side of the exhaust without the tip on.

Capt Fiero wrote: Blair from the looks of your exhaust you must be using the stock 3800 crossover pipe to join the 2 banks.  I would like to see a shot of the upper side of the exhaust system.  It looks like it is something similar to what GM did on the 4.9's.

Heres a pic of the rear of the motor showing the crossover pipe. The exhaust exits on the right between the #4 and #6 cylinders.

Now that this build thread is done can anybody guess what my next build thread is going to be on?

Here's a hint-

Think cleaner,faster,and better on fuel.

I put my 283 up on Craig's list for $1,300 just to blow it out the door. I will be selling my hp 2.8 for $2,ooo or so. A third of what it cost me but the 3800sc will be in the car permanently! When it starts to seem slow I will just bump the hp up.

Drove the car on the road for the first time last night. I had to put gas in the tank so I could make it to Dales alignment on sat. Needless to say the car doesn't track vary well yet.

I had no problems with the engine or trans. The overdrive gear has the car purring quietly at 80km but when the car is floored you can hear it! ( from about 3 miles away.) Acceleration is just a little better than a 3.4 but it's way better than the 2.5L the car had.

I still have some minor electrical problems in the dash to tweak out and I may need to think about a bigger muffler. All in all I 'm happy with the way the swap went.

Blair..... question! what year and make was the engine used for your swap?

I just picked up a complete  1991 buick lasabre limited with 123,000kms with a pristene 3800 v6 series one and a 4t60 all running.

Going to start tearing apart this week. Any secrets/suggestions?

Planning to keep all running gear together for a fiero project....

Still need a reasonable fiero  though

Marcel

HI marcel does the engine look like this-

or like this-

The first one is a 1990 and the second is my 1993 tpi. The best thing to save is as much of the wiring harness as possible. Every thing else is easy. When your ready to start the swap I can help you work out the problems. Just work on one problem at a time and try to think anything that you are doing now that could cause problems latter.

Blair....looks like the first photo

M

marcelvdgn wrote: Blair....looks like the first photo M

That is the most common 3800na to end up in a Fiero. People like it because of its reliability and lack of plastic. If you decide to go turbo at a later date, you can use the grand national comp. program as a plug and play.

Here's a pic. of how well it cleans up.

Bassman wrote: All I can say is omg...looks as good as you Blair

Thankyou' Thank youThank you vary much. u-hu.

Well the Edlebrock muffler was just too LOUD! so it didn't last long once I started driving the car.

I took a 40 series muffler from Flow Master and cut the end off and flipped it so the in and out were on the same side. Then it was just a matter of installing it in place of the other muffler after cutting out some of the trunk. I will repair the truck later. The tip you see is from Bora and looks vary close to stock.

Here's a pic of the finished engine in the bay. So far it's running clean with no problems. The power is just enough to have fun but not get all out of shape.

Hi guys, I've been working on a upgrade for my coupe.

With Marcel's help I have a 93 3800sc - 4t60e combo to upgrade the car with. I have already resealed and gasketed the engine and trans. I will be pulling the old 3800tpi - 4t60e out and fitting the new engine in the coming months.

Hey Blair, a lot of club members will be happy to see you posting here again.

Blair

I cant believe that is the same engine

all sparkly clean and all.......

let me know if i can help out

Marcel

This week I managed to drop the cradle from the car only to find dirty parts. I will have to clean and repaint the cradle before I can work on installing the new engine and trans.

 At this time it seems like a endless list of things to do...

If I can get the cradle prepped before the freeze I will mount the alternator and pulley system. Then all I have to worry about is wiring. The install will be made easier because a 4t60e/ 3800 was already in the car.

D_sensitized -

Can you tell me how your blower belt tensioner is working for you. Have you had chatter problems? I don't see a good way to mount on the return side so I may have to go driven side as well.

I managed to get the cradle cleaned and painted last week. This made it possible to fabricate the alternator mounts and belt tensioner assembly. The lower alternator mount is welded to the front motor mount that cradles both sides of the engine. The upper mount was much trickier to make. It had to protect the alternator from all directions of movement and vibration as well as hold the tensioner is the best possible location.

If your making alternator mounts for a swap make them strong! If you can't lift the engine by your alternator mounts it's not strong enough.

Thanks for the kind words.

Here's a pic of the just finished brackets ready for the glass beader and paint.

The upper bracket is made from 3/16" plate with 1/4"x3/4" ribs. The lower engine/ alternator mount is made from 1/4"x2" flat bar and 3/6" ears. This is the limit for my mig and as thin as I would go.

I should mention to anyone that wonts to make there own brackets that all I use is a 110v gas mig, 5"grinder, and a $15. home depot drill.

So fare the swap is going well. In the last two weeks I managed to reassemble the engine bits and mount the engine to the cradle. Although there was already a 3800 in the car I had to start the wiring harness from scratch. This allowed me to improve on how I built the first harness by using high temp looming and self bonding rubber tape.

I now have the engine and cradle in the car and have started hooking it up.

It will take another 20 hours of harness building to connect the computer and car to the engine harness. As well I will have to make mounts for the dog bones and coil pack.

I hope to get the car running before it gets real cold in my shop but this will be hard.

There are a couple of thing I am looking for, can you help?

I am in need of a - 87,88 coupe rear bumper in good shape.

 - Dickman v6 poly dog bone ( will likely order from D.)

 - left and right fast back drip rails.

if you think you can help give me a p.m.

Thanks...

Well after 2 weeks on the injured and heavily medicated list from a past shoulder injury I finally got back in the shop only to catch a cold with a shop temp of -10c. However I did get some work done.

Here is what my upper engine mount on the right turned out like.

As soon as I am over this cold I will be working on the left upper engine mount. The second mount is optional but I plan on some engine mods in the future that will require it. I also feel that there is too much engine movement with all the extra torque when only one top mount is used.

I finished the upper left engine mount and brace. I went with a overkill approach to it's design. ( I plan on boosting engine output in the future.)

The brace is mounted to the rear engine bulkhead were the bolts can catch the brace. It also ties into the shock towers and upper right engine mount.

The brace triangulates the rear engine bulkhead increasing strength and providing ridged mounts for the upper dogbone. Without this brace you will pull the bulkhead off its welds if you use a left mount.

The left engine mount was hard to make. The exhaust flange is right there under the dogbone mount and bracing for the movement of the engine took some thought. The left and right engine dogbone mounts are parallel to each other to keep engine movement equal and without twisting action. This should increase traction lessoning wheel hop.

Looks like the kind of support I need with my Duke!

Great job as usual, Blair.

hi again, after a long winter it's finally warm-er in my shop and work have resumed. I spent the last three days working on the electrical and I think it's about 99% done. The console proved to be a big time consumer but the 200 or so wires are all connected and operational.

This wiring layout will allow for quick field testing/trouble shooting. It will be much easier to add new functions as well.

I banded the connections to indicate function- Yellow-gouges/ green- coolant/ gray- diagnostics/red- power sup.

All wiring for the swap has been documented and is to be kept in a book with the car. No chance I will remember anything about the wiring later and if I try to take a swapped car to a shop they will laugh me out of the shop. Shops can't fix swapped cars. Too hard of a job.

 I test ran the engine but it doesn't run long. I will have to order the pass-key eliminator and wire it to the blue banded wire on the connection bar.

I hope to finish the car by the end of spring but I am in no hurry. Just enjoying the build.

WOW Blair as usual with you, that is truly Amazing.  I may have to take a tip from your awesomeness and do something similar with my 4.9 ECM.  I hate how all the wires are just kinda bundled up and shoved to the side.

           I am planning on getting my 4.9 on the road this summer, so I may, if you are able/willing get you to weld in my brace for the bulkhead.   Clynt made me a real nice triangulated brace that nearly matches the OEM brace on the right side of the strut tower to trunk wall, just this one goes on the left side.

With my new Nitrous kit and M/T slicks I am going to need all the bracing I can get.  I am estimating with the nitrous I should be making 500lbs of torque when I launch.

           Again, I love your work, it is so clean and perfect.  Between you and Craker, I don't think I have ever seen either of you build anything that was sub standard, its always got to be perfect or it won't leave your shop.

I've been working hard on getting this swap done but there's always something more to do. My intent to make the May meeting with the car fizzled when my pass key module failed to show on time but this gave me time the rework the exhaust and finish the trunk.

Here's a pic of the underside of the trunk. I cut a aluminum sheet to fit the trunk floor, applied heat shielding to the underside and riveted and sealed it into place. Then I sheeted the rear underside and made a heat shield for the underside of the trunk.

Here is the finished exhaust system. It is a center exit exhaust with flowmaster muffler and 2-1/2" pipe. Flange to tip is 24" with a total length of 60".

Here's the new exhaust system installed in the car. Lots of heat control, lots of room for exhaust changes.

I will build a aircare exhaust system with a cat for testing.

Here's a pic of the finished exhaust system

Ok, I'll be by for a visit:)...looking good, can imagine the sound:)

Things are coming along on the motor swap and I,m at the engine runs but do I trust it stage. I have found a couple miner wiring problems but they proved easy to find with the wiring layout I went with.

I didn't trust the belt to stay on the pulley so my good friend Tim made a pulley with sides to support the belt and prevent it from walking off.

alignment

The pulley was a tight fit but did the trick well with only small mods to the water pump bolts for clearance. Sighting down the new pulley identified a 1/16" miss of the alternator pulley and required a mod to the alt. bracket. Now the alternator can be adjusted up to 1/8" in both directions.

The car is getting close to being ready for road testing but I'm a ways from being ready for aircare. Hope to have it out soon.

Capt Fiero wrote: Blair your soundbite is here, http://www.captfiero.com/398.wav - www.captfiero.com/398.wav

Thanks Dave.

The sound bite is the newly installed 3800sc idling after it's first full temp warm up. What can't be herd is the blower wining and a deep subsonic note from the exhaust.