Have any of you had to deal with a broken starter bolt?

I've got an '84 Fiero here (duke/4-speed) that I had bought as a "project" several years ago. It has clutch problems, so it's just been sitting waiting to be attended to. Anyway, I've finally got around to dealing with it, and among the many things I'm discovering it needs, the longer starter bolt (the one closest to the back of the car) is broken off flush with the underside of the block.

There is access to it straight up from under the car, but the access is a very narrow gap between the cradle and the cat.

[EDIT] Actually, I was wrong in my previous statement. The bolt that isn't broken is accessed from between the cat and the cradle. (Hey, that sounds like a Harry Chapin song!) The bolt that is broken is a bit more accessible at least as it's positioned just behind the cradle towards the engine. However, I'd need a drill bit that was eight inches long to reach up to the block (not including the end of the drill bit that would need to be in the chuck and also the necessary additional length at the pointy end which would be needed to drill into the broken bolt.)

I've heard that a reverse drill bit will sometimes work (by "grabbing" and backing the broken bolt out), but it's obvious that some kind of an extension in this situation would be necessary.

I'd like to hear what has worked for any of you in a situation like this.

Well they do exist and god knows I've tried, but Canadian Tire Won't sell me one separately PERIOD.

    They have a drill head chuck that fits on the end of 1/2" drive impact gun, they sell it with there cordless impact gun / hammer drill conversion.   They want $249-$299 for the kit and refuse to sell me just the chuck.  With one of those, you could simply put on a 1/2 drive extension onto it, then chuck it into either an air impact gun, or a good drill using a 1/2 drive drill to socket adapter.      Aside from that, I would say get a long drill bit and a fairly narrow drill.  My Craftsman 19.2v cordless is only about 3" thick, so it can fit into a great deal of places.      However you may still find it easier to remove the front motor mount, remove the dogbone and let the engine droop down a bit, so you can get at it a bit lower and on a slight angle to get a bit more clearance.     The sad part is I have seen complete duke engines sent to the scrape as no one would even pay the $50 that they were worth in scrap metal weight.  MIght be a good time to yard the motor out, remove all the 84 wiring and toss in a carbed SBC then call it a day.    Being as you said it was a stick, if you are lucky it will have the 3.32 gears in it and get better gas mileage than your V6 Auto does.

Capt Fiero wrote: Might be a good time to yard the motor out, remove all the 84 wiring and toss in a carbed SBC then call it a day.

... 

No no no... I'm not doing a V8 engine swap into this '84 just because of a broken starter bolt!

Must be a simpler solution.

Dr.Fiero wrote: Long drill bit (aircraft surplus one) from KMS.

Would those also come as reverse drill bits?

Dr.Fiero wrote: Heat up the area around the bolt as much as you can...

To be honest, I'd be scared to use a torch under the car, especially when there's just barely enough room for me to squeeze under there. Having the car catch fire while I'm pinned underneath is not something I'm willing to take a chance on.

Dr.Fiero wrote: Yup, that means I can take any bit, up to 1/2", and do a spankin 135* split point tip on it!

What's a "135* split point tip"?

Dr.Fiero wrote: As for not using a torch under the car....   that's your own issue you'll have to deal with I guess.

Using a torch under a car while it's on a lift is one thing. Using a torch under a car that's inches from my face while lying on the ground under it is another. I don't mind admitting I'm chicken.

Thanks for the info.

So, back to what I brought up in my first post. Anyone had any experience with the following?

Patrick wrote: I've heard that a reverse drill bit will sometimes work (by "grabbing" and backing the broken bolt out), but it's obvious that some kind of an extension in this situation would be necessary.

Patrick

I have a 85 duke motor on the list of replacement engines

aircared, still in the car, complete, and running    

Just another option.

Geez, what is this? A broken starter bolt and everyone's trying to convince me to do an engine swap. Heaven forbid I was to throw a rod or drop a valve.

      Have you ever noticed there are not many 84's in the club.   Thats because the the 2 best things you can do with an 84 are

1 If it runs and drives, sell it, sell it to someone that doesn't really care about upgrading and just wants a car to drive.  Someone that plans to take it to a shop and have the shop replace the parts, because you can't really get cheap parts from another Fiero as all the 84 parts even the module and coil is different. The engine was the worst and least HP of all the Fiero's.  The books don't note it, but the 84 used flat tappet hyd lifters, however in 85 GM moved to a full roller cam with roller lifters that are MUCH better.    Has the worst suspension, (yes the 84 front suspension is a Little bit different than the 85.  It has the worst trans, both the 4spds had the "weak" case Muncie's.   

          All its issues aside it does not make it a bad car, it just makes it a bad car for someone that loves to "have fun" in the car.  With the parts prices being a great deal more, it just doesn't add up.

2.  Now the 2nd thing you can do with an 84 if it does not run,  yard out all the Unique 84 electronics, and drop in a non electronic engine like a Chevy V8 or convert a 4.9 to Carb.    You could use any Carb engine even a 2.8 if you wanted to.   

          Or

Buy a running 85/86 car, that is in bad shape, but runs, swap over the body and interior over, and go from there. 

Dr.Fiero wrote: we'd pretend you were a horse and shoot you.

You had your chance at the last meeting while I was standing up front.

Capt Fiero wrote: Have you ever noticed there are not many 84's in the club. If it runs and drives, sell it, sell it to someone that doesn't really care about upgrading and just wants a car to drive...

That's the plan with this car. It's an '84 SE that the previous owner basically put all Indy Fiero body panels and trim on (except for a rear wing) and painted it gold with silver trim. I got it for a "good" price years ago because it has clutch issues (won't disengage), and I've finally gotten around to dealing with it.

I've done some prep work to get it started after sitting all this time, but when I went to turn it over with the starter, the starter just spun without kicking out. That's when I eventually discovered that it's only being held on with one mounting bolt.

Does anyone know offhand whether the '84 dukes normally had a supporting brace on the back of the starter? (My '87 duke has one.)

        I know they had them in 85, if they were not installed on the 84's they probably had a rash of starter issues and hence installed them in 85.   So I would assume they either did have them in 84 when they were released or there would have been a tech update to add them to the 84's.

I need to have a look on the side of the block to make sure there's a place to bolt the brace to. Should be, but it's safer to take nothing for granted!

Then I just need to track down a brace. If I remember correctly, it's just a bent piece of angled steel, but of course it's a special bent piece of angled steel.

Patrick wrote: I just need to track down a brace.

Well, the solution was to rob the brace off my parts car, which is another '84.

Here's a shot of the broken bolt (white arrow).

So I put the starter back on with one mounting bolt (for now) and the support brace on the back.

After much messing about, I tried to start this Fiero which has been sitting unstarted for just over five years in my back yard!  (I brought it home on September 5th 2004.)

Anyway, she started right up.  The only problem is that there's a high pitch loud scream coming from somewhere that goes up and down with the RPM. I don't see anything rubbing.  I removed the fan belt to eliminate the alternator and the water pump. Made no difference. I suspect it might therefore just be a vacuum leak from a dried out and cracked rubber tube, but I ran out of light tonight and had to call it a day.

Yeah, I was pleased it started up so easily (after doing a multitude of things to get it ready), but obviously disappointed as well that there's an unknown problem. I'll see if I can track this down tomorrow...

Congrats on the Fireup, always good to hear another Fiero came to life.

Thanks.  

Still a ways to go with this "project" yet though before she's driveable. Gotta figure out what's going on with the clutch. (Won't release.) Hoping, hoping, hoping that the cradle doesn't have to be dropped.

Bit by bit, one day at a time...

High pitch noise could come from the distributor shaft bushings

lack of oil getting to the upper bushing

has been sitting a while

take a look under the cap and wiggle the shaft

no wiggle is a good thing

marcelvdgn wrote: High pitch noise could come from the distributor shaft bushings lack of oil getting to the upper bushing has been sitting a while

Okay, that's something I haven't come across (or even read about) before. I'll check it out. Thanks Marcel.

marcelvdgn wrote: take a look under the cap and wiggle the shaft no wiggle is a good thing

I had the cap and rotor off earlier today and I recall there was no abnormal play in the shaft, but I guess the bearings could still be dry.

Do I need to actually pull the distributor apart to lube it, or will the engine's oil pressure eventually take care of the problem?

I didn't run the engine very long because the high pitched scream sounded AWFUL!

Capt Fiero wrote: Well pick up a slave and toss that in 1st thing...

Dave, the problem as I remember it (keep in mind this was five years ago!) was that stepping on the clutch pedal didn't move the lever which moves the clutch fork. It didn't appear to be a hydraulic issue, as I unfortunately was only too familiar with those type of issues with my first Fiero.

Now I will state right now that the clutch pedal is bent (it sits below the brake pedal), and this MIGHT be the reason the clutch isn't disengaging (which would be great if this is all that the problem is), but it might also be a chicken and egg scenario. The clutch pedal may have gotten bent because the previous owner was trying to force the clutch pedal to the floor when something was actually stuck internally with the clutch/pressure plate/throwout bearing, etc.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how I can try and move that lever (without using the hydraulic system) to see if something in the internal clutch assembly is stuck or not? (The previous owner had put the clutch in and figured he had screwed up with the throwout bearing or the pressure plate or whatever. But he didn't know for sure.)

And how far should the top of the lever (where the rod from the slave normally sits) be able to move (without going too far)? About an inch?

Capt Fiero wrote: Pat you awake?  Its just 5am...

No Dave, I wasn't awake at 5am. Thanks for not calling!

If you're around now, I'd certainly appreciate hearing what you have in mind. I'll be going outside to wrestle tigers (work on the Fiero) in about a half hour though.

  Drop me a PM that I can call you at.

David

Okay, I made progress, but...

It wasn't a vacuum leak. It wasn't the distributor bushings (but I'm still glad I took it off and checked it out as there wasn't any thermal compound between the ignition module and the distributor base).

Out of desperation I unwrapped my new mechanic's stethoscope and put it to use. I found the problem, sort of. The noise is coming from something rubbing the inside of the timing cover right at the particular location that the white arrow is pointing to.

So what am I up against here? I don't recall any noise of this sort when I heard the engine running five years ago. Is there something that could've happened while it's been sitting for five years that would result in this "rubbing".

Other than this gol' darn problem, the engine starts right up and runs fine.

Here's a picture of what's behind the timing cover. (Not my engine, just an image from the 'net.)

So what would cause the camshaft gear to start rubbing the inside of the cover? What's supposed to prevent that from occurring?

I guess whatever it is, the timing cover needs to come off.  

I had another look today, and again used my mechanic's stethoscope. I pinpointed exactly where the rubbing sound was coming from (right at the top of the timing cover) and noticed there was a buildup of silicone there, probably extra that had sort of oozed over from where the gasket is. I peeled it away with my finger. Low and behold, what did I find!

Yep, a dent right at the top center of the timing cover!

Look's like I've got to drop the cradle anyway to fix the clutch issue. So now I can fix this at the same time, as well as replace the water pump I notice is dripping out of the weep hole.

I love these cars.

ARTIC-1 wrote: Did you get your broken bolt on the starter out yet?

Interesting that you should ask at this time because I got the broken starter bolt out today!

As reported http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?FID=1&TID=1579&PN=1&get=last - Here , I've been slaving away the last few days on this Fiero. This is what I was looking at yesterday.

You'll notice to the left of the flywheel the starter peeking out. Once the flywheel was off, the top of the broken inner starter bolt was exposed and I was able to use vice-grips to rotate it so that it went down. When the broken end of the bolt eventually poked out the bottom of the engine block, I was then able to use the vice-grips on that end and continue to rotate the broken bolt until it dropped completely out.

I was lucky, no drilling required. However, I was only able to do it this way because I've got half the car torn apart!

I should've taken a picture of what I was doing today, but I was too filthy to handle the camera.