Next weekend will be busy. Arlington on Saturday, autocross on Sunday.

Hopefully the mighty Duke will be able to handle all the pressure.

So who (besides me) is planning to go to this autocross hosted by the Porsche club on Sunday June 5th, the day after Arlington?

Colby? Gary? Alan? Harrison? Harrison's dad? Tristan? Brian? Johnny?

Did I miss anyone who might be interested?

The weather is expected to be perfect, and the track should be dry!

Edit...Registered, see you Sunday, Double header for me it seems

Bassman wrote: I would if I could get in but sold out apparently...I can try tonight as I would like to go

Sold out !!!!!??????

...

Bassman wrote: Edit...Registered, see you Sunday, Double header for me it seems

I think you did that on purpose!  

I'm going to register right now!

Guys, a couple questions about the Karelo registration...

What is the "Autocross club bar code"? Is that the six digit CACC paper thingy I got last year?

Am I still regarded as a "Novice" after having run in three autocrosses last year?

Quick answers would be appreciated as I'm in the middle of registering online.  Thanks!

[EDIT] Didn't want to wait any longer (and have it sell out while I was stalling!), so I used my CACC number and I put myself down as a "Novice", as what the heck I still drive like one on the track.

Woo hoo, I'm pumped!

Patrick wrote: What is the "Autocross club bar code"? Is that the six digit CACC paper thingy I got last year?

Patrick wrote: Am I still regarded as a "Novice" after having run in three autocrosses last year?

I think they classify novices as 3 or less. If you don't feel like a novice anymore then say you're not. It doesn't matter since this is just for fun.

Cheese wrote: EDIT: I'm too slow!

And that's why my mighty duke is going to beat yours!

Heh heh... sorry Colby, couldn't resist...

We need to get wild-child Tristan signed up now.

Patrick wrote: Cheese wrote: EDIT: I'm too slow! And that's why my mighty duke is going to beat yours!

We'll see...

Patrick wrote: Cheese wrote: EDIT: I'm too slow! And that's why my mighty duke is going to beat yours! Heh heh... sorry Colby, couldn't resist... We need to get wild-child Tristan signed up now.

Wild-child here never had the tail come out once last autocross, thank you very much. My most trouble-worthy action was an apparent failure to stop in the damn box on my fastest run.

Romeo wrote: Wild-child here never had the tail come out once last autocross, thank you very much. My most trouble-worthy action was an apparent failure to stop in the damn box on my fastest run.

Well, that report was all very fine and dandy, but I neglected to see any mention made of this Sunday.

So, hotshot... you coming out to play?

Romeo wrote: I have work. I will see if I can sneak my way out of it...

I'm hoping you can. I wish to put Gretchin in her place.

Wasn't there something said by Cokby about beating us "Old Men"???...pushing it:)...

Sunday will be fun:)

AllanJ wrote: Signed up and co-driving Colby's Fiero.

Now that's going to be interesting... seeing how a 4-banger Fiero responds to an experienced autocross driver who's used to driving more powerful vehicles.

AllanJ wrote: I think Colby said he'd buy me a year's worth of autocrosses if I could manage to beat him on Sunday.

I thought I heard Colby say he'd pay the entry fees for every Fiero at every event this summer if you beat him.

Cheese wrote: what I actually said (in response to my uncle wanting to beat my dad's time) was: "I'm registered now and it looks like Brian and Patrick are too. So if you can't beat one old guy driving a mid-engined car, there's now two more for you to try to beat!"

Them's fighting words, sonny.

Colby, you better hope Tristan signs up so that us "old guys" will have more than one kid to kick around.

Bassman wrote: Sunday will be fun:)

Should be great.

Ok, bet's on the table...beers after for the prize:)

Patty, you'd better hope I can't attend. I fully intend to embarass you.

I should do another oil change before this weekend, mind you. I've been putting it off as Royal Purple is currently $20 a litre right now.

Patrick wrote: Now that's going to be interesting... seeing how a 4-banger Fiero responds to an experienced autocross driver who's used to driving more powerful vehicles.

On Sunday, no matter where you are on the skidpad, be prepared to hear me yelling "C'mon! Go! Go! Go!" as I come out of every turn.   

Romeo wrote: Patty, you'd better hope I can't attend. I fully intend to embarass you.

Bring it on, brother. You won't have the Steamer there to bail you out.  

Romeo wrote: I should do another oil change before this weekend, mind you. I've been putting it off as Royal Purple is currently $20 a litre right now.

Purple Shmurple. Buy a man's motor oil, straight from Canadian Tire. It's even on special now, $2.89 per litre. Add a can of STP and you're all set. This is what I fed the mighty duke last week. Old school FTW.

AllanJ wrote: Patrick wrote: Now that's going to be interesting... seeing how a 4-banger Fiero responds to an experienced autocross driver who's used to driving more powerful vehicles. On Sunday, no matter where you are on the skidpad, be prepared to hear me yelling "C'mon! Go! Go! Go!" as I come out of every turn.

Heh heh, I know the feeling only too well!

Tristan, you can still sign up https://www.karelo.com/enter_res.php?&BID=374#Ev10832 - Here if you plan on coming out Sunday. If you wait 'til Saturday night to sign up (cut-off is at 8pm), it's liable to be full.

Come on, it's going to be a perfect day for autocross.

Harrison (and anyone else who's on the fence), this goes for you as well.

Anyone meeting at the McDonalds in the morning? I'll check this thread early tomorrow when I get up. I gotta go to bed now. It's been a long day today. Great fun, but I'm bagged...

I'll be at MacD's...will need food:), I'll be there for 7:30am or so...

Night

Wakey wakey... another perfect looking day.  Put on that sunscreen!

If I get out of here early enough, I'll drop by the McDonalds. (I should be able to make it.) If not, see you all at the track.

Okay, I'm officially bagged now. After being out in the sun all day yesterday in Arlington, and then being out in the sun all day today in Pitt Meadows at the autocross, I'm toast... in a good kind of way.

Six "real" runs, then about a dozen "fun" runs between 3:30 and 4:30. The duke held up, I guess I have as well.

However, I've found a cold beer in the back of the fridge... probably been hiding in there since last summer. I'm going to have it now. I've earned it. I'll report more on the autocross in a while.

I'm wiped out after two days of autox back to back.  Having a nice rum & Coke right now.  Waiting for my wife's friends to leave so I can have my house back.  Need food....need a couch....need zzzzzzzzz.

Patrick: what is the tire verdict between you and Colby?

AllanJ wrote: Patrick: what is the tire verdict between you and Colby?

That's an interesting question, Allan!

I believe Colby beat me by 2 full seconds today (twice around the course). Needless to say, I was choked. After you left, Colby and I swapped cars for one of the "fun" runs.

I was shocked, yes SHOCKED at how much better Colby's car stuck to the pavement in the corners compared to mine. You can check for clarification from Gary (because he saw the times on the clock and told us the time difference), but I believe in the one run that Colby and I did in each other's Fiero, I beat him by two seconds, and that was going around the course once, not twice as we did for the "real" runs.

Unofficially, I believe my best time for twice around the course was 63.3 seconds, and once around the course was 37.2 seconds.

Gary, if you remember, could you post the times that Colby and I got in each other's cars. I have no idea what they were as initially I didn't know the timer was still working for the fun runs (and therefore didn't even look at the clock).

I gotta say though, everyone did well today. It was fun.

---------------------------------------------------------

Brian, real sorry you had to leave early. I don't want to mention too much here, but I hope things worked out okay.

Mom is alright, thanks and sorry to have left...you talk about tires, did you hear how mine were squeeling like a little girl, and NO traction...lol

I did get home and tried to fiddle with my gears, looking more like the trans itself.  I spoke with David and hope to visit one day to look at this, I may have to take it in somewhere to have done...unless someones looking to make some cash, I have no idea nor ability to fix this myself...certainly will not be taking the Mazda out unless I invest in better tires...

Bassman wrote: Mom is alright, thanks...

Great, glad to hear that!

Bassman wrote: I did get home and tried to fiddle with my gears, looking more like the trans itself.

Damn, not so happy to hear that!

David thinks it might be the fork...either way, means much more work than I would want.

I need to find the card for the shop that David & John sent me too, the guy prepped a trans when we did my clutch and he's a old member, forget his name:(

 Brian the guys name is John Devers.  I don't remember what shop he is working at.  Well I do remember the shop, just not the name of the shop.  If you want I can look up his cell number and PM it to you.

Thanks David...may be the best option hey...chitty as I would prefer to pay a club member other than a shop.

Cheers, Bb

Cheese wrote: Patrick wrote: ...but I believe in the one run that Colby and I did in each other's Fiero, I beat him by two seconds, and that was going around the course once, not twice as we did for the "real" runs. Not sure that's really a fair comparison, I thought the timer was off too and decided to drive somewhat calmly, plus I didn't want to have to pick up any cones. I can say for certain though that your tires are a fair bit better than the cheap summer tires I used to use, and I think your car is a bit quicker off the line, too.

Fair enough, we probably shouldn't read too much into the time difference between us when we swapped cars. There were several factors affecting what times we might've got. I also realize that you might've been holding back somewhat after I suggested you refrain from hitting the fence with my car.

Seriously though, your tires felt fantastic compared to mine. So much so that I honestly think it would be worthwhile for me to have a set of nice soft tires on rims to use just for autocross.

Back to the times for our swapped cars run... I'd still like to know what my time was in your car (Gary, do you remember?) to see how it compared with the best time I eventually managed in my own car after you left.

Tire wars....love it! 

Beware the "crack" of autox: R-compound tires!  Once you try them there is no going back.  I loved Kumho V710 since they are fairly durable.  Hoosier A6 is the best, but you should change tires at the event for those.  Finding a nice compromise tire with really grippy properties can make a lot of sense.

It is nice to mix things up with friends with faster cars.  Today my fun run in the 914 was 55.1 sec.  That was faster than the very experienced Gary W in his black Corvette with nice tires on it (R888 I think).  I couldn't have done that run with worse tires.  If I had fresh Hoosiers compared to 4 yr old Victoracers on the 914 the times would have dropped much more.  Problem is the hit to the wallet with those.  Compromises work just fine here and I had a blast with those older tires. 

A funny story from the autocross today...

Last week when I registered for today's autocross, I ticked the box that said I was a "Novice". Technically I was/am one, but I didn't think it really made any difference. Anyway, because I was registered as a Novice, it turned out I was assigned someone to give me tips, etc.

An experienced driver (actually, I believe he's a professional driving instructor) by the name of Mitch Burton was assigned to me. He drives an 2005 Suburu STi, and that thing hauls! It has 360 HP and all wheel drive (with probably great tires). He took me on one of his runs, and it's the fastest car I've ever been in not going in a straight line. Man oh man, does it ever accelerate! I was impressed.  

Anyway, the funny part of the story.... (Keep in kind what Mitch himself drives.)

After he had been in my '84 duke (as a passenger) for a run through the course, Mitch commented to me that there were several spots were he thought I should've been giving 'er more gas. Mitch was kind of shocked/surprised when I informed him that the pedal had been to he metal.  It was as fast as we were going to go! He had no idea there was only a measly 90 HP at our disposal.

Ah, it's a humbling experience driving a duke. Keeps us grounded, right Colby?

Cheese wrote: Patrick wrote: Ah, it's a humbling experience driving a duke. Keeps us grounded, right Colby? You could say that... although I must admit that at times I find myself craving more power.

Yeah, that's how it always starts. First, a faster car. Then when that's not enough... your own country. Happens all the time.

karnak wrote: if my memory serves...  Patrick = 37.xx Seconds

Thanks Gary. Well, that's interesting...

Because I had so many cracks at it during the fun runs (maybe 10?), I was eventually able to get the time in my Fiero down to 37.2 seconds, even with my hard street tires. However, at every turn I felt I was on the edge of totally losing it.

When I drove Colby's Fiero and got roughly the same time, I felt like I had complete control of the car.

Man oh man, I'm really sold now on softer tires for the track.

Colby, please please please don't think I'm suggesting you only beat me because of your tires. Honestly, that's not what this is about. You beat me fair and square by a good two seconds. I bet if you were a little more aggressive on the track (seriously!) you could really clean my clock. Once you start pushing the envelope a bit more, I'm going to have to buy good tires just to prevent from being embarrassed.

Oh yeah, I want to say something about your brudder...

Riley also did real well out there today. It was so funny... When I was out on the track working at one of the stations, I could hear Uncle Al yelling orders at Riley from the passenger seat of your dad's 914 as they raced by. Riley listened, and did great!

Team Johanson are a formidable bunch!

karnak wrote: very interesting little camera. Thanks Patrick for putting me onto it.

Hey, you're welcome Gary. It's actually quite amazing the quality of the video and the audio from those cheap little cameras!

I'm going to have to think of some creative ways of using mine at the next autocross.

Patrick wrote: Riley also did real well out there today. It was so funny... When I was out on the track working at one of the stations, I could hear Uncle Al yelling orders at Riley from the passenger seat of your dad's 914 as they raced by. Riley listened, and did great! Team Johanson are a formidable bunch!

I'm very proud of the Johanson clan.    I saw some great improvements out there and a huge step to take is with confidence both in the car and you as a driver.  That's why I was yelling "gas, gas, gas!!!"

I remember the first time I took Gary for a ride in the 914 at a decent speed.  At the end of the run he said: "OMG! I was terrified!"    Yesterday he turned in a great time that showed he's now getting closer to that level of driving and I don't know if I could terrify him anymore.  Although I could try.... 

There are a few key elements that go together and it all starts with looking way ahead.  Once you look way ahead, you can see the path you need to take. Eyes look to where you want to go and your hands will follow.

Think about it this way. Imagine yourself in the driver's seat and glance ahead at a turn coming up.  Now look back at your steering wheel (and only the wheel).  Turn the wheel the "right" amount at the "right" time to make the turn without looking where you're going.  You are guaranteed to get the steering input wrong.  Wrong amount of movement at the wrong time.

If you are constantly aware of what line you want to drive and let your hands move the wheel while your brain takes in input from all around, now your hands can make tiny, minute adjustments to correct your line if you are off.

Now you'll be smoother and can carry much more speed because you'll be driving on the correct path.  Then it's a matter of getting on the gas pedal and taking that corner at the fastest speed the car will allow.  Listen to the tires.  Feel the car's movement from the tires, through the suspension, through the steering wheel and seat into your body.  Let your eyes take in movement based on WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.  That means looking where you want to drive.  Your brain will know you want to drive a particular curve and if your body (and ears) is giving it feedback that you are starting to slide, you can correct it with a tiny adjustment.  Open up the wheel a bit (counter steering), adjust throttle position, etc. 

If you are looking to improve your times, take videos.  A cheap P&S camera on a suction cup mount will do just fine.  Mount it behind you so you can see yourself working the wheel.  Watch as you go into a curve and look for steering wheel corrections.  Were you smooth with only minor corrections?  Or did you go into the curve with too much steering input and then have to open it up a lot when you realized that your line was way off?  Looking ahead to visualize the path you want and then making tiny adjustments based on feedback will allow you to go much faster.

It takes some time to do this consistently, but keep working at it. 

Cheers,

Allan

Colby: I forgot to mention but your car oversteers a bit.  Is there a way to firm up the front end just a little bit? ...and I mean "little".

Patrick: not sure if you saw it or not, but there were a few times when I had to countersteer a bit to prevent a spin.  Those small drifts are fun to do, but time was wasted.  I could've got in the 58's if the car was a little better balanced.     Or maybe if I drove it better.  lol!

Patrick wrote: Because I had so many cracks at it during the fun runs (maybe 10?), I was eventually able to get the time in my Fiero down to 37.2 seconds, even with my hard street tires. However, at every turn I felt I was on the edge of totally losing it. When I drove Colby's Fiero and got roughly the same time, I felt like I had complete control of the car. Man oh man, I'm really sold now on softer tires for the track. Colby, please please please don't think I'm suggesting you only beat me because of your tires. Honestly, that's not what this is about. You beat me fair and square by a good two seconds. I bet if you were a little more aggressive on the track (seriously!) you could really clean my clock. Once you start pushing the envelope a bit more, I'm going to have to buy good tires just to prevent from being embarrassed.

I know you were more looking at the tires and how they affected the times, but I didn't want anyone else to think it was just the tires that let me beat you.

Impressive that you got another 10 runs at the end, if I had known you'd get that many I would have stayed a bit longer.

AllanJ wrote: Colby: I forgot to mention but your car oversteers a bit.  Is there a way to firm up the front end just a little bit? ...and I mean "little".

Hmm... there's not a whole lot I can adjust, really. All I can think of to do is adjust the front and rear camber (less at the front or more at the rear). Or maybe switching to rubber end links on my rear sway bar could work. I was noticing oversteer at times as well.

Edit: Or maybe something like http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=186 - this for the front would work...

AllanJ wrote: Colby: I forgot to mention but your car oversteers a bit.  Is there a way to firm up the front end just a little bit? ...and I mean "little". Patrick: not sure if you saw it or not, but there were a few times when I had to countersteer a bit to prevent a spin.

Alan, I can't say I noticed you having to countersteer Colby's car, but the time I drove it, I immediately noticed that I wasn't struggling with the horrendous understeer which I experience with my own car. It was so nice being able to turn the steering wheel when at speed with Colby's car and then have the car actually go in that direction!

Cheese wrote: I know you were more looking at the tires and how they affected the times, but I didn't want anyone else to think it was just the tires that let me beat you.

The tires certainly contributed, but they can't get the car around the track by themselves. No, you did great Colby. You've raised the bar, and now it's up to me to see if I can meet the challenge!

Cheese wrote: Impressive that you got another 10 runs at the end, if I had known you'd get that many I would have stayed a bit longer.

I finally quit because I felt something (either me or the duke!) was going to break if I kept going!  It might even have been more than 10 extra runs I got in at the end. I lost count, as there were about three of us at one point just going and going over and over. It was invaluable track time and it gave me an opportunity to experiment with different lines and applying the brakes at different points and at different pressures when approaching a turn at speed.

One thing I really enjoyed was that with all those runs I eventually knew in my head exactly what the layout was of the course. I was then able to focus on the driving and not worry about where I was supposed to be going. No time or energy wasted with indecision about turning right or left. I wonder if experienced autocross drivers feel that way after one or two runs (or maybe even after just the walk-through)? That would make for a huge advantage.

When you consider that we ran the course twice during our runs for the timed events, I must've gone around that course at least 22 times yesterday. I was pushing the duke as hard as I could every second with nary a hiccup. Between driving to Arlington in a spirited manner on Saturday, and the extended autocross runs on Sunday, I've gotta be happy with my 84's reliablilty. She may not be fast, but she's reliable.

Cheese wrote: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19426172@N08/sets/72157626771642749/ - Pictures!

Oh yeah, the mighty Duke is looking good!

That's my instructor, Mitch, in the car telling me to go faster... and that's me letting him know the pedal was already to the metal.

(Someday Johnny and I have to get together so that I can finish what I want to do with my hood/nose and rear deck/spoiler paint scheme.)

Romeo wrote: Your heads look massive in those pictures.

Like a couple of bobble-heads, eh?  

Well, we did have helmets on bud, unlike one fella I can remember from last year.

Patrick: you look like you're out for a Sunday drive. 

Gary: look at your upper body position.  You will have better control if you are in your seat when steering. 

Look at my upper body in the same turn:

You need to move the seat as far forward as you can so you can easily reach the wheel.  Best position is when your legs are slightly bent when the pedals are fully depressed and when you can place your wrist on the top of the steering wheel (12 o'clock) while your shoulders are flat against the seat.  This will be hard if you are very tall, long legs, etc.

AllanJ wrote: Gary: look at your upper body position.  You will have better control if you are in your seat when steering.

Maybe Gary was reaching to change the radio station.  

AllanJ wrote: Patrick: you look like you're out for a Sunday drive.

Well yes, it was Sunday!

Hey, what can I say, Allan... I'm relaxed and focused behind the wheel. Perfect upper body position as well.

Colby, have you tracked down any posted times for yesterday's autocross yet?

Patrick wrote: Well yes, it was Sunday! Hey, what can I say, Allan... I'm relaxed and focused behind the wheel. Perfect upper body position as well.

Yes, that's perfect!   With a heavy feeling, manual steering car with wide front tires like Gary's 914, you need all the leverage you can get so it's best to place your body close to the wheel so you can use more of the larger muscles, rather than the smaller forearm muscles. When steering, use both hands too.  One pushes up and the other pulls down.  Shares the work, less arm fatigue, keeps you in the seat and you get better results. 

Patrick: you mentioned that your car understeers more than Colby's.  I just found out that you don't have a rear sway bar.  While you're considering adding one...  ...you can try to drive around the problem in some cases.

Heading to the far end of the run as you finished the last far crossover, you had to make a left turn before the pond and you didn't have much room to plow out because of the pond and the cone beside it.  If your car was understeering here, try two things:

1) Adjust your line coming through the crossover so you were more on the right hand side and start turning left sooner than you were.  Think of a more gradual arc.  Less steering demand should lessen the understeer.

2) You'd still probably get that front end plow (less of it anyhow), but now do "trailbraking" to help get your car rotated.  Trailbraking is carrying your braking into a turn.  I can't write out a chapter from a book here in the forum, but what you will find is if you brake in a turn, not only will you get some weight transfer up front to give your front tires extra grip, but you will lose weight at the rear helping to let your rear tires lose grip.  Done properly at autox, you will get a tiny slide and the car will rotate and make the turn.  Done poorly, and you can spin like a top. 

Some cars are so unbalanced that even trailbraking might not help much, but it's something for you to try.  I'd be curious to try it on your car too.  Next event where there are some fun runs, if you're cool with it I'd like to try out your car and see if I can compensate for the understeer you've been experiencing.

AllanJ wrote: Trailbraking... Done poorly, and you can spin like a top.

I experienced that a few times last year (when I was even more of a noob than this year) by braking way too hard while already in the turns. I was thinking (at the time) that a rear sway bar was the last thing I needed. I was afraid it would make the situation worse.

However, after all the track time I had on Sunday (22+ laps around the course!), I realized I could go as fast as I wanted into turns and the rear end wasn't going anywhere as long as I didn't stand on the brakes in the midst of the turns.

Yes, a rear sway bar is now in my 84's future.

AllanJ wrote: Some cars are so unbalanced that even trailbraking might not help much, but it's something for you to try.  I'd be curious to try it on your car too.  Next event where there are some fun runs, if you're cool with it I'd like to try out your car and see if I can compensate for the understeer you've been experiencing.

Hey, that would be great, Allan.  It's always interesting to see how a piece of hardware responds in someone else's hands.

I purposely pushed Colby's car a bit when I had the one chance to drive it, and I'm glad I did because it allowed me to notice the huge difference in handling between our cars. I wanted Colby to push my car as well (to get some feedback from him), so in retrospect I wish I hadn't teased him about keeping my car away from the fence.

Cheese wrote: Or maybe switching to rubber end links on my rear sway bar could work. I was noticing oversteer at times as well. Or maybe something like http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=186 - this for the front would work...

Colby, I know you were experimenting with the rear sway bar last year. I thought you had removed it. Is it currently on or off? 

After reading Colby's post and reading http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20110502-2-103366.html - This and other threads at Pennock's, I think what I'd like to do is to install a front sway bar on the back using rubber bushings, and at the same time install Rodney's http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=186 - Zero Lash End Links on the front.

Remember the difference between oversteer and understeer...
If your passenger is screaming, it's oversteer.
If it's you who's screaming, it's understeer.

...

Patrick wrote: Cheese wrote: Or maybe switching to rubber end links on my rear sway bar could work. I was noticing oversteer at times as well. Or maybe something like http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=186 - this for the front would work... Colby, I know you were experimenting with the rear sway bar last year. I thought you had removed it. Is it currently on or off?  After reading Colby's post and reading http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20110502-2-103366.html - This and other threads at Pennock's, I think what I'd like to do is to install a front sway bar on the back using rubber bushings, and at the same time install Rodney's http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=186 - Zero Lash End Links on the front.

I do have a rear sway bar on the car right now. If you do decide to do the rear sway bar, make note of your front bar's diameter as the 84's may have had a different size. I can measure mine and tell you what it is if you like, I know the rear is 7/8".

Cheese wrote: I do have a rear sway bar on the car right now.

Ah, that's a variable that I didn't know existed on Sunday. I remember you saying you weren't entirely happy when you first installed the rear sway bar. I thought you had removed it and it was still off.

Hmmm... so now it's difficult to say how much the tires themselves were responsible for the improved handling of your car compared to mine.

Cheese wrote: If you do decide to do the rear sway bar, make note of your front bar's diameter as the 84's may have had a different size. I can measure mine and tell you what it is if you like, I know the rear is 7/8".

Yeah, I don't know offhand either if the diameter of the Fiero sway bars changed over the years. My parts car is also an '84, so I expect I'll be using the front sway bar from it.

I'd rather have a thicker/stiffer sway bar on the front than the back, but by using rubber bushings on the back and the zero lash end links on the front, hopefully that'll give roughly the same results.

Colby, I read http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20021104-2-022996.html - Here that the "early" 84's have a slightly thinner (20mm) sway bar.

Are both of your sway bars the thicker (22mm) ones? (Measurements being given in metric and fractions are confusing.)

If so, and if it turns out that both of my sway bars are the thinner ones, would you be interested in trading bars? That way we could both theoretically have the best setups with a thicker bar in the front and a thinner bar in the back. 

Cheese wrote: My rear bar isn't a stock one... Since I'm not getting any excessive oversteer right now, I'd rather just play with the stiffness of the end links.

No problem. If nothing else, I can probably "borrow" a 22mm sway bar off of one of my later model Fieros to try it out.

Cheese wrote: 22mm to 20mm is actually quite a large difference.

Not nearly as much difference as 20mm or 22mm on the front and nothing on the back.

Colby, email sent.

Cheese wrote: No, Rich hasn't even posted the results for the 28th's autox yet. Hopefully he'll do it within the next day or two.

I saw yesterday that Rich said he would post Sunday's results after last night's game. I guess I'm anxious to see if I'm close to (or at) the bottom. If that Trans Am which was just cruising around the track was faster than me I'm going to feel really bad!  

Cheese wrote: http://members.shaw.ca/rsandor3/pca_autox_2011_june5.htm - http://members.shaw.ca/rsandor3/pca_autox_2011_june5.htm

Ahem, that was certainly humbling looking at the results.  Going to have to shake up (or throw out) the duke.

Colby, I gotta ask... Did they get your times mixed up with Uncle Al's? I can't believe you beat Allan by 2.532 seconds. No way!

Yup, the names are backwards.  No need for Rich to change it....we just need Colby to learn enough to make that happen for real next time. 

Cheese wrote: I'm a little surprised that I ranked better on the 28th's course. More novices out that day, maybe?

Maybe.  I got into the 45's at lunch when I took your car for a fun run and that's much higher placed than I've ever had your car.  I think the really tight PITA hairpin section really messed some people up.  If you drove that one section really bad then your times would reflect that.

Allan, on page 3 of my http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?FID=9&TID=1770&PN=1&get=last - 84's build thread  I posted a picture and discussed the fact that I just discovered I've been driving on basically no front suspension.  I guess the car has been riding on the front bumpstops (heck, maybe even on the rear ones as well) ever since I cut my springs down over a year ago.

This may be an obvious question, but how has this affected the car on the track? My very first impression of how my car felt last year in the corners at autocross was that the front felt like it was "skipping" sideways on the pavement, much like a stone thrown across the still water of a lake. Has a total lack of suspension travel created this problem?

Obviously I need to either cut down the bumpstops (without causing the shocks to bottom out) and/or install slightly longer springs.

Patrick wrote: This may be an obvious question, but how has this affected the car on the track? My very first impression of how my car felt last year in the corners at autocross was that the front felt like it was "skipping" sideways on the pavement, much like a stone thrown across the still water of a lake. Has a total lack of suspension travel created this problem?

Maybe....  The skidpad has many seams that are quite uneven in spots.  These seams are 10' apart and can be very noticable in almost any car. 

Patrick wrote: Obviously I need to either cut down the bumpstops (without causing the shocks to bottom out) and/or install slightly longer springs.

For optimum handling, you really need suspension travel.  Riding on the bump stops (or think of no suspension at all) will put all the cornering forces on the tires and they may not be able to take such a high level of load (weight transfer combined with the driver's desire to change direction).  They definitely won't be able to react well to uneven surfaces and that can be the "skipping stone" feeling you experienced.

Cutting coils from a spring is a no-cost way to "install" shorter, higher rate springs, but you really don't want to mess up the suspension geometry.  Factory cars are designed for plenty of suspension travel and for a sports car, you don't need all that height.  Not positive what a good height would be, but I doubt you'd want any less than 3" of travel. 

Don't forget too, spring stiffness versus tire grip is what affects necessary suspension height. That's why the Saleen S7 can get away with 0.5" of suspension travel (2.0" ride height): The springs are so stiff, they barely allow the suspension to compress at all. The same could sort've be said for an F1 car, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

Now, obviously the Fiero needs a hair more than 0.5" of travel. According to my sim, Allan was absolutely spot on with his estimate of 3.0". Doing so with the Fiero stock weight, suspension stiffness, roll bars and with sporty tires (UHP) will cause the suspension to deflect 3.0" exactly during peak lateral cornering.

AllanJ wrote: Cutting coils from a spring is a no-cost way to "install" shorter, higher rate springs, but you really don't want to mess up the suspension geometry.  Factory cars are designed for plenty of suspension travel and for a sports car, you don't need all that height.  Not positive what a good height would be, but I doubt you'd want any less than 3" of travel.

Thanks Allan. It's kind of a tough decision on a daily driver whether to go for "looks" and sacrifice handling or vice versa. However, I know I need at least some travel (as it appears I have none at the moment).

Romeo wrote: According to my sim, Allan was absolutely spot on with his estimate of 3.0"

Tristan, impress me and get your sim to tell us the minimum gap required between the bumpstop and the lower control arm on an '84 Fiero to allow for this 3" of travel at the wheel/tire.

Romeo wrote: I couldn't care less about the bumpstop. So long as you allow the suspension to move 3.0", you'll not run in to binding.

I don't think you're quite grasping the concept. I need to care about the bumpstops as currently my lower control arms are sitting on them! Obviously a gap is required between the bumpstops and the lower control arms in order for the suspension to move at all. "Binding" of the coil springs is not the issue here.

Man, what did they teach you in that school?

http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/uploads/Patrick/2011-06-07_220029_bump.jpg -

Right, but the difference between your upper bumpstop and your lower control arm perch is your suspension travel - is it not? So long as you can allow for 3.0" of total movement (As in, from normal ride height to maximum compression from cornering) the suspension will be happy. I know what you're saying, I do believe you don't know what I'm saying though. So long as the suspension can deflect 3.0" total, everything's peachy.

Romeo wrote: Right, but the difference between your upper bumpstop and your lower control arm perch is your suspension travel - is it not?

Wrong, the distance between the bumpstop and the LCR (lower control arm) is NOT the same as the suspension travel at the wheel/tire. That's the part you're failing to see.

I took the front suspension apart on my '84 parts car today. I wanted to get the front springs out of it. I also wanted to determine how much distance I needed between the bumpstop and the LCR to allow three inches of travel at the wheel/tire. Turns out it's basically a 2-1 ratio. For every 1/2" of LCR travel at the bumpstop location, the wheel/tire out at the end of the LCR travels 1".

So I now know I need a 1 1/2" gap between the bumpstop and the LCR to get 3" of suspension travel at the wheel/tire. I currently have none.

I pulled the rubber bumpstop off as well to have a close look at it. I can probably cut 3/4" off to give me a bit more suspension travel. (The more I cut off of it, the less I need to raise the car with replacement springs.) I don't think I can cut anymore than 3/4" off the bumpstop though and have it remain functional. It still needs enough rubber to cushion the jolt of the LCR hitting it if/when a big bump or pothole is driven over.

Colby, I believe you cut one coil off your springs. It would be great if you could have a peek at your front end and tell me how much of a gap you have between the bumpstop and LCR (obviously while the weight of your Fiero is on its springs). And... any chance you remember the the three letter code on your springs? The springs I cut down two coils were DMF, and the springs I removed today from my parts car are DMN.

**************************************

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20110502-2-102544.html#p1 - CODE Length Spring/OD Wire/number of Coils = Calculated Spring Rate (lbs)

1984
DMF 13.5" 4.125" 12.5mm 9 = 191 lbs
DMN 13" 4.125" 13mm 8.75 = 234 lbs

1985-87
FJA 14" 4.125" 12.5mm 10.5 = 164 lbs
FJH 13" 4.125 13mm 9.75 = 210 lbs

Cheese wrote: Patrick, I don't remember the code, but if I had to guess from that list they most likely were FJA.

Here's a more comprehensive list... 

Cheese wrote: I've shortened my bumpstop using the method I posted in the other topic so telling you the distance on my car probably won't help you much.

You mean you actually cut and shortened the metal bumpstop cones and welded them back on? [EDIT] You lucky guy, I didn't realize you had this done to your Fiero.

karnak wrote: Patrick, if needed.. you cut it, i will re-weld it for you.

That would be great Gary, but I'm not sure how I'd be able to cut it in one location (here) and weld it at another location (there). [EDIT] Well I guess as long as I didn't hit any big bumps or potholes, I could drive out there with the ends of the bumpstop cones removed. I'll have to talk to Clynt to see how he cut his off.

When you did it to Colby's car, did you have the front end out, or did you do it while it was still in the car?

Cheese wrote: Patrick wrote: When you did it to Colby's car, did you have the front end out, or did you do it while it was still in the car? It was still in the car.

Thanks Colby. It's good to know that it can be done without having to remove everything!

Romeo wrote: Well, if worse comes to worse, I have a set of static coils (They don't get stiffer like the Fiero ones do) that will fit the front, with some finesse. Was hoping to use them myself, but if you can't find any other solution, they'll offer enough spring to keep the car up and off the bumpstops.

Thanks for the offer Tristan, but I have no shortage of springs to replace the ones currently in the car. I've got the ones I just took out of the parts car which I can perhaps cut down one coil (and they're nice ones as they are the stiffest factory ones made for any year Fiero), and I also have a set of Intrax lowering springs. I had a set of Suspension Technique lowering springs as well, but Clynt needed them for his choptop which was bottoming out due to the springs being cut down too far. I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

Deciding on which springs to use will be determined by whether or not I cut down the metal cones of the bumpstops. Just cutting the rubber bumper helps, but it's not really enough if I want the front end lowered any noticeable amount. And I want it lowered.  (...as it looks so much better that way!)

Patrick wrote: Colby, I read http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20021104-2-022996.html - Here that the "early" 84's have a slightly thinner (20mm) sway bar.

I used a 7/8 open end wrench as a guide (7/8 = 22.225mm), and it went over the front sway bar of my "spare" 86 GT. However, it wouldn't go over the sway bar of my '84 parts car. This '84 has the WS6 suspension package so perhaps the sway bar is beefier than "normal".

I haven't tried the wrench over the sway bar of my gold '84 yet. If it turns out that the sway bar on this Fiero is thinner than the one from the parts car, I'll put the parts car sway bar on the front of the gold '84, and I'll put the thinner sway bar on the rear of the gold '84.