auto to manual
Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Technical Topics Forum
Forum Name: Technical Questions and Discussions
Forum Description: Got a technical question about your fiero? ask it here.
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2756
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 11:44pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: auto to manual
Posted By: D_sensitized
Subject: auto to manual
Date Posted: 19 November 2011 at 8:50pm
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Well, since my transmission is even more broken than before, I need a
new one, and I am tired of the boring automatic. So here is my list of things I need, I am sure I'm missing some things so please fill in any holes: Transmission - I am thinking 5 speed getrag, I think I'd rather a 5 speed over 4 and the 6 speed swap is a little more than I want to do right now. Axles Mounts shift/select cables clutch, flywheel, pressure plate clutch line slave cylinder master cylinder clutch pedal shifter assembly shift knob, boot, console trim Brake pedal Electrical: Reprogram ECM I haven't looked into the wiring yet, but I need to wire in backup lights, I don't know if it;s needed or not but I'd rather have a neutral safety switch, something with the parking break/trunk release. Does the list seem pretty complete? Is the 5 speed getrag a good option? or is there something from a more modern car that could work without too much more difficulty. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Replies:
Posted By: Colby
Date Posted: 19 November 2011 at 11:35pm
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I was wondering what was happening with you and your car. I may be able to help with a couple of those parts, I'll PM you.
------------- 88 Formula 5 speed |
Posted By: DannyCanuck
Date Posted: 20 November 2011 at 9:08am
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You are also going to need a brake pedal. ------------- 88 duke, bog standard 
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 20 November 2011 at 6:36pm
Hopefully that doesn't put the brakes on the project.  ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
DannyCanuck wrote:Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 20 November 2011 at 10:11pm
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Thanks Colby, PM replied.
Brake pedal, right, since the auto one is wider isn't it. Does anyone else have any of the parts I need and are willing to part with them? ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 21 November 2011 at 2:55am
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Aye, by quite a large margin. I suspect it'd interfere with the clutch pedal. I don't have anything to part with, but if you want to go for a pick-a-part run, I'd be down. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Indy
Date Posted: 21 November 2011 at 9:00am
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Unfortunately the 2 Fieros at Pick-A-Part are both AT. Cheers Gary
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Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 10:45pm
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http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087296.html - hmm....
F23 5 speed from newer GMs, a little more work but seems like it would be another good option, thoughts? ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 23 November 2011 at 12:38am
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Does seem like a pretty gnarley swap, nice and simple. I'd go for it, might as well. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 05 December 2011 at 1:58pm
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I will try to head out to pick a part this weekend to search for a good
f23. I may also be able to get a wreck with an f35 maybe even with an LSD, I'll see how that goes. Anything else I should grab from a f23 donor car? Trans, brackets, fittings, is it worth it to grab a the shifter or would it be too different/upside down? ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 05 December 2011 at 2:14pm
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Which day are you headed, brother? Care for a second set of hands? ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 12 December 2011 at 8:30am
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Planning on going between christmas and new years. If you're around,
you're welcome to come out, extra hands are always helpful. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 12 December 2011 at 1:30pm
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Sounds gnarley. =) ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 13 December 2011 at 3:15pm
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I don't have long to type, but I have done this swap, my original 85GT that became my first V8 was an Auto and I converted it to a stick. Do yourself a HUGE favour and find a donor car. Its really the only easy way to get all the parts. The Fiero 5spd shift cables alone will cost you as much as a wrecked car by itself. Last time I checked the going rate for a set of Getrag cables was about $400 bucks, ya ouch. However I have seen complete Fiero's with bad motors for the $500 range. A little harder to find a Getrag car but they are out there. If you do decide to go the parts route, I can probably set you up with about 1/2 of what you need. Pedals, axles and such. Assuming you did not delete it, your remaining Fiero harness will have the plug in it that goes to the Getrag trans for backup lights. I found it faster to just rewire the Start switch and bypass the auto bits in the harness then to replace a bunch of stuff that did not need replacing. Note this does remove the clutch lock-out safety switch so you can start the car without pressing on the pedal. I won't be able to really do much digging around until after the holidays though. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:38pm
A successful visit to pick a part today 
Got an F23 out of an 03 Sunfire. Someone already took out the engine so the trans was very easy to get at and took 10 minutes. Although now that I have it home, I'm not 100% sure it's the right bellhousing pattern and not the ecotec pattern. Oh well, I will find out soon enough and get a new bellhousing if I have to. it was the youngest F23 there. 
I grabbed the shifter assembly and cables as well, I may not be able to use them but I will see what I can salvage from them. There is also a nice fresh series 2 supercharged 3800 in a 97 park avenue there too. I still have another week before school starts, so I will see how far I can get with this before then... ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 02 January 2012 at 5:43pm
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Got more parts for this. Got the pedal assy, 5 speed shifter assy, axles and shifter surround. Thanks
Got the auto shifter out, spent 2 hours trying to get the old pedal assembly out, anyone got any tricks to it, that stupid wire loom is really in the way.  ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 02 January 2012 at 8:49pm
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Torch.....:)
------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 02 January 2012 at 8:53pm
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Take the whole dash out. It's really easy, and gives you a good chance to look things over. Shouldn't take more than 2hrs (if it's your 1st time). |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 04 January 2012 at 4:39pm
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Got it out! and the new assembly in The dash really does come out pretty easy once the center console and steering column are already out
Interior is still pretty bare, I will wait till I have all the rest of the parts such as cables and the wiring figured out before I put it back together. The skeleton is in pretty bad shape, so I started fixing the cracks and building up the missing parts with some heavy duty glue, I will drill new bolt holes later. Cradle is just about ready to drop, started dropping it then realized I forgot to disconnect the parking brake 
For wiring, what is there to do? -Reverse switch -clutch safety switch -I still have the buffer circuit I made for the 4t60e speedometer, should that still work for this one? ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 04 January 2012 at 6:01pm
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Way easier with it out eh?! As for the reverse lights... you MIGHT be closer than you think already. Look at the C500 connector (the one by the battery). There's two plugs. One goes to the chassis, one goes to the engine (the rearward one). You should already have the two wires in the rearward connector - and I happen to have the two wires that go from said plug to the tranny. Since you've obviously changed lots of other things, I have no idea whats left of your harness. IIRC it's a green and blue wire. Your auto harness might be reusable by splicing a 2 ping weather pak onto it. |
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 05 January 2012 at 7:56pm
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I just spoke to Blair on the phone and he said there is an issue with the series one engines and the balance on them. That you basically have to ship your flex plate to West Coast Fiero so they can make you a proper flywheel that is weighted correctly to your engine. I know nothing about what he is talking about but seeing he has done the swap before I'd take his word for it. I'd still recommend the Clutchnet Clutch though. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 06 January 2012 at 8:39pm
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I will start looking into the wiring next week I think, I have the service manual so it should be pretty easy.
I know I need to get the flywheel balanced, I will see if I can find somewhere local to do it, or maybe at school. I got the engine and tranny split today, so apart from disassembling my wiring harness, everything is apart pretty much. Turns out I did grab my trans from an ecotec car,  so back to pick a part first thing tomorrow morning to get a new bellhousing. I will try to remember my camera and get a pic of what is left on the fieros that are there and anything else I see of interest.------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 13 January 2012 at 7:30pm
More progress this week:
Took out the auto shift cable, unhooked the trans cooler lines, but still need to wiggle them out somehow. Got the 5 speed shifter installed as well, Will probably put the dash and front half of the interior back together since I no longer need it out I don't think, maybe just for some clutch wiring. I opened up the trans with the proper bellhousing, and cleaned that up: 
Just had to cut off the old shift cable bracket since it would interfere with the exhaust crossover: 
I needed to somehow hold the gear shafts from moving while I undid the last bolt to open the casing, so I found an old clutch plate and welded a bar to the spline part of it. 
Going to try to order some shift cables from L67 on pennocks. And since I have the trans split anyway, might as well put in some http://www.ebay.ca/itm/OBX-Helical-LSD-Chevy-Ccobalt-Pontiac-G5-GM-F23-Tranny-Limited-Slip-Differential-/150734607194?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23187b935a - fun bits too. Is http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ZZZ-50-6533/ - this an ok flywheel? I can't afford an aluminum one right now. http://www.alecsautomotive.com/ - Alec's machine shop does flywheel balancing, so I can take it to them for that. I had them do the valve job on my heads earlier. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 28 January 2012 at 11:21am
Now I can get the trans all together and ready for install. Just as soon as I refine the LSD, from what I've read, this brand doesn't have the best build quality, but when rebuilt is great. Fortunately, there are a few nice write-ups on how to do so. http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=41&i=47871&t=47871&p=1 - link ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 31 January 2012 at 7:26pm
Got my shift cables in yesterday:
I haven't had too much time to work on it lately though. LSD is almost ready to install, still have a few rough spots to sand down, all the burrs are gone though. 
Hopefully I will get some more time this week/end to work on it. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 31 January 2012 at 8:21pm
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Make REAL sure you clean all the sand paper grit. All it takes is one
little grain. Dawg ------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 01 February 2012 at 9:06am
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WOW very cool. If this whole LSD thing works out, you might be able to make a nice side business out of it, doing LSD's for all the Getrag Fiero's in the club. I know I would be up for one in my V8. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 01 February 2012 at 9:20am
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I'm not going all out on the diff, if I sanded the gouges left by the
machining completely it would probably throw the tolerances out too far and things will be too loose and rattle around. I'll try to bring the LSD to the meeting next weekend if I remember. Are the diffs interchangable between the F23 and earlier getrags? If someone has one out and wants to bring it to compare, it would answer some questions. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 03 February 2012 at 10:49pm
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Today I took advantage of the nice weather and got some more work done.
Finally got the auto trans cooler lines out with minimal bending. Got the brake pedal hooked up to the cylinder, since when I put the pedal assembly in, the rod was on the wrong side  .
Also split open the first tranny I bought, with the ecotec bolt pattern but from a newer 03 car. the insides were pretty dirty and not nearly as nice as I was expecting, so I will stick to using the one with the right bellhousing and all of it's insides. But I got everything inside and on the trans ready for install, got the gears off the diff to transfer to the LSD. I should have some more time to work on it this weekend as well. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 06 February 2012 at 10:20am
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Got more done this weekend.
Finally got around to the wiring, removed all the old trans wires from engine bay to PCM, and found the reverse light wires and rerouted the speedo wires, I will finalize where they go when I have the trans bolted on. Found the starter wire and will send it straight to the starter from the C500 connector. That should be all the engine bay wiring. I did the interior wiring as well, cleaned up some of my old ECM harness wires as well. Rewired the trunk release relay into the e-brake circuit, and found the starter wires. I have the clutch safety switch for these wires, but I do not have the connector to plug into it, are they pretty universal on other cars? or does anyone have a spare they don't need? After I get that wired in, I can put the dash back together. I started making the bracket for the shifter cables at the trans end, just need to get a 1" drill and weld it together. I ordered the F23 tool kit and shim selector kit, so I can get the LSD installed right with the right shims. I also cleaned up little parts here and there getting things ready for installation. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 22 February 2012 at 9:22pm
More progress to report 
I put the dash back in today, and routed some wires up inside for the clutch safety start switch when I finally get the connector (still looking for one so if you have one I could use it). Got the shift cables installed as well, but forgot to put any lube in them, so I will probably take them out again. 
Center console skeleton is fixed minus drilling new holes, but I will do that once it is in so I know where to drill. 
Got my shift cable brackets finished for the transmission side, as well as the lever for the shift (select) cable on the trans end. 
Still waiting on the tool kit, finally picking it up this weekend, been sitting in the PO box in Lynden for the past week. I also decided to rebuild my tensioner pulley bracket on my engine, as it wasn't doing much tensioning as it was. I am going to bring it about an inch or 2 closer to the belt so that it is back within range of it's swing, I may also find a tensioner with a longer arm if I can't get it close enough. Got my clutch line sorted out today, gotta pick up all the pieces later this week from Lordco, making the line from scratch, steel braided line at each end, and hard pipe in the middle. My only concern is that the only size we could get to work with the fittings available was 3/16th line. The stock fiero clutch line is 4mm which is almost 1/4 inch, but there are parts of the throwout bearing line and master cylinder openings that are an 1/8th or less, but not for such a long stretch. Should the smaller line affect anything? ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 24 February 2012 at 8:41pm
Got the tool kits today, hopefully I can have the trans back together this weekend.
 ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 27 February 2012 at 8:12pm
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Got my trans back together this weekend
Ready for paint and to have all the bits such as shifter brackets and sensors bolted back on. Here are a couple pics of the differential prep, had to shave the inside of the speedo gear since the LSD was a bit wider then the stock diff. 
I also made a clutch line, once I get the engine/trans back in, I can add the last bit of flex line to the right length. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 04 March 2012 at 8:02pm
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Got started on the mounts today, going to use the stock front trans mount that came with the trans, and fab up a bracket for the cradle side. Rear trans mount will be stock fiero on the cradle, and ill fab up the bracket for the trans.
Finished the wiring today and test fit the trans to the engine. 
I started to rebuild the front engine mount as well, so I can use the nice hydraulic mount instead of the tiny pre 88 rubber thing, So I hacked off part of the existing bracket and rewelded on some more so that I can move the bolt holes to the right place. And it looks like I need some new torsion bars, or at least one of them anyway  . Anyone got a spare?
Came out to it today and it has somehow snapped at a bend, leaving very little to hold up the decklid. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 8:57pm
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Got most of the interior back together today, except for the shifter surround which still needs some touching up and I need to track down a matching overlay for it.
Working on the mounts as well, I finished the front engine mount so that it uses the better '88 mount instead of the little pre 88 engine mount. I have started on the other 2 trans mounts, but need to get some more metal and make some mounting points on the cradle. Is http://clutchnet.com/clutches/detail/3082-clutch-kit-package/flypage.pbv.v2/3309-c3882?sef=hcfp - this a good clutch? stage 2 for the fiero, says it can handle 310 torque(I think my torque is somewhere around 280-290) and seems like it would be easier to live with than the stage 3. Keep in mind this is my first manual car so I don't want anything crazy. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 27 March 2012 at 11:54pm
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Got more done this weekend.
Finished off the mounts, just need to drill one last hole in the cradle next time I get the engine/trans on there. Test fit the cradle in the car, all the mounts clear, but I am going to need to redesign my shift cable bracket if I don't want to bash in my strut tower to make room. And I will also need to reroute my fuel lines, since they are in the way too. Attacked the cradle with a wire wheel to get rid of any rust, then a coat of rust check and finally resprayed it all black again so it looks shiny and new again. Some pics of the mounts: There will be bolts closer to the actual mounts apart from those shown in the pictures, cradle just needs some more holes first. 
Test fitting: 
stupid springs breaking... 
Problem area: 
And I also got some exhaust wrap since I was cooking my trunk sealant... 
Clutch has been ordered, stage 2 from clutchnet. Tomorrow I will send off my Eprom to Ryan at sinister performance again, and take my flywheel to the machine shop to have it turned down and balanced. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 28 March 2012 at 2:30pm
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Me like.....but dude, that welding is yuck. You need to get me over
one night and get you sorted out. What sort of welder do you have? Dawg ------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 28 March 2012 at 4:01pm
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I know the welding is ugly, but it works. I blame the machine
I have a cheapo gasless flux core, has wire feed settings, and hi or low. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: ARTIC-1
Date Posted: 29 March 2012 at 5:01pm
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Looks good buddy,are you running that wire in reverse polarity-stinger is NEG with cored wire,an 20% duty cycle welders are ok if you have time, but weld 2 min then wate 8 min to weld again-Hope all goes well when you turn the key.
------------- SNOW MAN 87-GT/AUTO-2.8_ WHITE 88-TTop/ Duke-2.5. RED |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 18 April 2012 at 7:21pm
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I have a gasless flux core mig welder, with the only settings being a dial for the wire feed and max or min for power.
I haven't made too much progress lately, but some. Clutch is somewhere in the mail, should get it soon. Reprogrammed Eprom from sinister performance came today. Got the clutch line fitting figured out: 
Cut the barb of the original fitting and drilled a shallow hole in it, then cut off the other end of the AN fitting, leaving a ledge to fit into the hole on the other fitting, pressed them together then TIG welded the seam. Interior is completely back together, still need to get a new overlay for the shifter surround, might just paint it black or grey or silver or something till then. Cradle is all repainted, rust check then repainted it black. 
I will probably need a spacer for the throwout bearing, so when I get my clutch in, I will take some measurements and fab up a spacer. Close now. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 29 April 2012 at 9:38pm
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Finally got the clutch this weekend
Got it installed on the engine, but need to clearance the trans. Pictures! Flywheel side: 
Pressure Plate side: 
Yellow PP: 
Bolts: 
Didn't get an alignment tool, not that it would have done me much good, so I made my own, wrapped a couple layers of aluminum tape on the socket and it worked well. Installing: 
Where it hits: 
Where I clearanced: 
I took a first past with the grinder, but ran out of time before I could test it again. But I got the shifter cable bracket finished on the transmission, as well as the clutch line. Got the banjo on the clutch master cylinder bored out so it fits over my clutch pedal. Also got some gas struts from pick a part last week, so started getting those installed. Got the end on the decklid done, and a template made for the other end, using the strut tower bolts. Hopefully this week I will get some more time to get out there and put it all back together. Aiming to have it out at the next meeting ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 29 April 2012 at 10:52pm
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Holy Crap.... That is a massive improvement in spring design on the hub, you need to fire those pics up on Pennocks. Makes me almost want to order a new disc for my car. The biggest failure in clutches for me have always been hub related (same goes for many of the high power swaps on pennocks) That hub looks almost indestructible. Congrats. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 30 April 2012 at 10:09pm
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Almost there!
Looks like I clearanced the trans casing enough for it to work, but forgot to take pictures. Got everything bolted up put the cradle back in and am just working on getting everything hooked back up to the car. Looks like I might even have it done by the end of the week. ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 01 May 2012 at 1:39am
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Looks amazing, once you get it done, you'll have to stop by and take me for a comparison ride in it. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: bcampbell
Date Posted: 13 May 2012 at 9:02pm
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Any chance you'll be making any more mounts and shift cable
brackets? I'm hoping to do an F23 swap in the future. ------------- '86 2m6 F23 5-speed, LSD, 3.5L LX9 '89 Firebird 3500T, T56 |
Posted By: D_sensitized
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 9:44pm
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I don't think I will be making any more mounts, but I can scan the template I made for the shift cable bracket.
ITS ALIVE!
As many saw at the meeting, the F23 swap is done and my car is back on the road. It's a whole new car with the 5 speed, way more fun to drive around. I still have a couple things I need to finish up, runs rough sometimes and throws a code, but is problem free other times. I need to put a flex joint in my exhaust since it's hanging down at too much of an angle and leaks at the joint with the manifolds, which in turn cooks my trunk and melts whatever is in there
But everything with the trans works great and the clutch is perfect, not too harsh like I was worrying it would be. and man does this thing haul ass ------------- -Harrison 88GT 3800 SC1 F23 5-speed Chilliwack |