85 GT won’t run
Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Technical Topics Forum
Forum Name: Technical Questions and Discussions
Forum Description: Got a technical question about your fiero? ask it here.
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=524
Printed Date: 23 November 2024 at 8:58pm
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Topic: 85 GT won’t run
Posted By: Roadfury
Subject: 85 GT won’t run
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 7:59am
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So I did an engine swap on my car, same V6 engine, and it'll start up but won't stay running. It runs when you spray gas into the intake but once you stop spraying it quickly dies off. I'm getting good spark, fuel pumps running, ive got good fuel pressure, i cleaned the injectors with meneral spirits, both fuses are good, checked and cleaned all grounds. I'm not sure what elese to do to make it start and my car has to be out of the schools shop ASAP, Help! ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:00pm
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Got a spare ignition module, or can you borrow one? Yes, I know you have spark... trust me.... |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:23pm
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Stale gas in the tank? Or yeah firing problem. When you turn the car over and then pull the plugs what do they look like? Dry? Wet? Burnt? Do you have to prime the fuel pumps on those engines? What I mean is, I've heard of NOS being so old that the "baffles?" inside the pump stopped working or gets brittle due to old age. Where did you check for fuel pressure? ------------- I wanna go fast. |
Posted By: Blair
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 6:21am
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When I had that problem the power sup. to the injectors had come unplugged at the harness plug by the battery. It's a long shot put it's worth a try. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 7:39am
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Yah thats what me and another guy in my class had figured reading the hayes manual but the shop teacher said no no deffinatly not the problem I'll try that and report back.
There was about an eighth of a tank left that had been sitting for a long time but my shop teacher topped it up with 93 oct. before i could drain it, and im not one to toss free good gas. We basiclly just loosened the connection on the fuel rail, cranked it over and started cleaning up the gas that sprayed everywhere. (Very half a**ed way of doing it but my teacher isn't that good and i've only recently found out that you can actually hook up a gauge)
The 6 or 7 point plug yah we've connected and reconnected that. -------------
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Dr.Fiero wrote:Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 9:50am
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**I'm not that familiar with the 2.8L because I've not worked on one for a long time.** It's not getting gas to the plugs, because it fires and runs when it does. So just slowly move from the tank to the engine checking every place you can for fuel movement. Check for old or plugged fuel filters, pinched fuel lines, etc. If your tank is rusty and you ran the car near empty, there could be a good deal of debris in everything. I had an old Monte Carlo that I had to change the fuel filter twice a week to keep it running.  ------------- I wanna go fast. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 2:47pm
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so i replaced the ignition module, no luck, the injecters all for sure work, and it gets loads of fuel to the rail, im stumpped and angry! -------------
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 3:26pm
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It's either spark, fuel or air. Have you 1. Checked cap and rotor, wires? 2. Oxygen Sensor? 3. vacuum lines? We'll beat this dammit! You just hang in there!  ------------- I wanna go fast. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 6:31pm
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1. All brand new (bought the tune up kit from the fiero store) 2.Nope, would that prevent the car from continuing to run? 3. I had to make up pretty much all new ones. -------------
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 6:47pm
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No, the O2 sensor is ignore by the ECM for the first 60 seconds after startup. You have spark, you have timing, you have compression (since it runs on ether!). I've seen a bad distributor ground kill cars. They get corrosion between the base plate where your module goes, to the shaft/housing. Quicky try - run a ground wire off the battery to one of your distributor cap screws. Takes 30 seconds and eliminates that off the list. You're down to fuel (since you replaced the ignition module). Check for +12V at the pink/wht & the pink wires on the connector going to your injectors (that 2 row semi fat one near the t-stat housing). If you have power there (with the key on!), then... and this one is semi risky... run a wire off the green and blue wires on that same connector. Every time you ground those, ALL your injectors will fire. You have a choice - you can pull the intake (again... I'm sure!) and then lift out the injector rail leaving it hooked up, then with the key on, TAP it to ground for a SPLIT SECOND and see if they all squirt, OR leave it all hooked up in place, and have someone crank the car while you again tap it QUICKLY to ground. If the car starts and then dies, just keep quickly tapping it to ground in spurts to see if it will keep going. DON'T hold it on ground for more than a tiny shot at a time or you'll flood the hell out of the engine, maybe hydro lock it, or burn out your injectors! You've been warned.... ;) Anyhow, if that checks out, ring out all the wires going from your distributor back to the ECM, then do the same with the injector harness. You COULD have a foobarred ECM. I've replaced only about 3 over the years, covering probably 100 cars. But it does happen. |
Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 6:52pm
If you don't already have it, here's a drawing that might help you see what you're doing with the above info: |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 7:36pm
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Just brainstorming...... I've got a battery charger hooked up to my battery while im trying to start. Would that have any affect? Would my alternator being dead have anything to do with it... like i said just brainstorming -------------
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 7:52pm
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Nope - wouldn't have any effect. |
Posted By: marcelvdgn
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 10:56pm
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you mentioned that you were getting spark,. where did you check that????? did you check at the coil or at one of the spark plugs???? i ask because ive had a rotor short out on me. which means i had spark at the coil and goin into the dist cap but nothing coming out to the spark plug........ obviously the engine would not do anything. i keep an extra rotor and cap in the trunk at al times!!! just another thought......Marcel ------------- Marcel 86SE V6 Auto 85SE V6 Auto 85 2m4 soon to be sleeper 3.8sc 5 speed |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 8:56pm
I KNOW im getting good spark and its on the right order because when i continue to spray gas in the intake it continues to run..... PS the rotor, cap, plugs, and wires are new -------------
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Posted By: marcelvdgn
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:47pm
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i have had a new rotor short out on me after ten minutes of use obviously a defect that doesnt happen too often M ------------- Marcel 86SE V6 Auto 85SE V6 Auto 85 2m4 soon to be sleeper 3.8sc 5 speed |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:49am
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I had too much humidity get up under my distributor cap. Had good spark, seemed to be firing properly. But the car would only run for a short while, if at all before backfiring and eventually flooding. A trip to Canadian Tire + $25 (I believe) fixed it perfectly. I've been told, if the car misfires once, the cap and rotor may be fouled. Though that doesn't seem like your problem. It does seem like you may have injector problems though. Or at least something fuel related as we've ruled out spark and air. I'd try Dr. Fiero's suggestions towards checking injectors and/or swapping ECM's. ------------- I wanna go fast. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:33pm
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Dr. Fiero..... I've found the reminantes of two hacked up security systems.... Could the immobilizers allow the car to start on the cold start injector and not the others????? -------------
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:36pm
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Yes! There's a good place to start. Rather odd way to immobilize (most people take out the ignition system), but... This all falls back under the posting of "ring out all the wires back to the ECM". :) |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 8:21pm
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so weve ripped out the old alarm systems, biig pile btw.... checked the power to the ECM its good, signal from the distributer is getting to the ECM, spark is getting to all 6 plugs. I do have a 87 Gt ECM sitting here but thats all i know about it.... is it compatable the numbers all read, the service number is 1227170 the number under that is 860022 M622503058 the barcode number under the little cover is 533014106006204 i heard something about an oil pressure sending unit sometimes causeing problems... -------------
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 9:26pm
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The ECM will "work" although it wont be "right". Any V6 ECM will fit any year, or combo - it just might not run right! Also, if you've got an auto vs. std ECM, it'll run, just not right (since one knows about the TCC etc, the other doesn't for example). Oh, and there's actually only two ECM's - the late one you have as a space (1227170) and the early one that's in your 85 (a one year only ECM). The thing that makes them unique after that is the PROM chip under the little cover. Look for a 4 digit code made up of letters on it - they MIGHT be hidden under the plastic carrier. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:14pm
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IT RUNS! IT RUNS! So we found out some hack cut the ECM grounds flush to the wiring harness... Extended the wires and grounded them to the engine and now it runs... Sort of.... It idles really high and when you give it some gas, it just boggs down... Listen to the video clip... (Facebook loads faster but doesnt always work...) http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=17569761046 - http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=17569761046 http://media.putfile.com/Fiero-Runs - http://media.putfile.com/Fiero-Runs PS It sounds so beastly because theres a 3/4" hole in the exhaust just before the cat. PPS Miiiiiight want to turn down the volume a little bit -------------
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Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 7:44pm
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I would check the ignition timing and look for any "codes" stored in the ECM. You may not have any codes seeing as you had so much of the harness apart. But its either the timing or a hooped MAP sensor from the sounds of it. Car runs nice and smooth. Oh also it sounds like you have a vacuum leak. May just be the IAC bypass that I can hear. However 9 times out of 10 a vacuum leak on a Fiero turns out to be a cracked EGR pipe. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 6:27am
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It sounds like you don't have a TPS and/or MAP! You need to check more ground circuits - the TPS and the MAP share a common ground, and a common 5V rail. If someone chopped grounds off... you need to go over each and every wire that's SUPPOSED to be coming off the ECM. I'll try to email you a few pages of diagrams if I can. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 4:10pm
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So can i check the tps and map? or do i just have to rank up my bill higher? the sound clip you heard was actually with a 87 gt ECM in it, we swapped it out and put in the right one and now when you go to give it gas it actually responds.... its still idling really high though... 2500rpm i think... Ps where do you get thermal wrap and the wiring tubes... i had to cut the thermal wrap off to fish out the grounds and the tubing is SUPER brittle and is all falling off.... :Edit: PPS i did get the emal dr thx -------------
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Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 3:07pm
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so we adjusted the timing and it does rev lower now i forgot to add that since we got it running after we run the car for about 30 seconds the headers glow red :( fixes??? -------------
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 5:19pm
Ack! Ack! You got the timing wrong. Don't run it anymore until you do it properly. When you set it, you need to jumper the A&B pins on the ALDL, then start the engine and set it to about 12* BTDC. Do it on #1, then double check it on #4 (you should get within a degree or so the same). If your mark jumps all over the place, and the idle is more or less steady - you probably need a new drive gear on the distributor. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 8:28pm
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Okay you'll have to explain that a bit more in detail thats all over my head i could show it to my shop teacher but it sounds technical and he would only relay to me "rable rable rable"
I need to know what A&B pins are and what a ALDL is and what 12*BTDC is sorry this is the only car ive ever worked on and im only 16, im learning as fast as i can :( -------------
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 9:17pm
A&B pins - the ones located next to C&D.  Pull the cover off your cigar lighter. You'll see your ALDL connector in there. The pins are marked, but they'll (A&B) be the only two holes that are on the end of a row, and have contacts in them (the rest are dummy holes). Just strip a 3" or so chunk of wire, fold it in half, and stuff it into A&B. Now go back to setting your timing as you did before, and set it to 12 degrees BTDC (before top dead center). If you have a digital setback timing light, it's way easier to do it - you just plug 12* into the light, then set the timing mark on the balancer to ZERO on the scale. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 6:09pm
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ALDL is that where you hook up the service engine soon code reader? and i take the jumper wire out after the timing is set right?? -------------
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 22 April 2008 at 6:20pm
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Correct on both counts. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:13pm
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so the timing seems to be set right but the headers are still glowing red what the fudgecicles??? could it be a vaccum leak? pcv tube leak? egr leakage???? -------------
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:25pm
If you want to read a WHOLE lot on the topic, have a look at http://www.fierosearch.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?start=2&forum=-1&where=SUB&SearchQuery=%22Glowing+manifolds%22&Action=DoSearch - all these threads from PFF. I don't have any first hand experience with this as my Fieros have all been Dukes (until I bought a GT a month ago). You've checked the timing, good. However, as you suspect, glowing manifolds can often be caused by a lean condition. Vacuum leak, broken EGR tube, even a cracked intake. Or it could be a clogged cat, a bad O2 sensor, etc. Let us know what you find.
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Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 02 November 2008 at 10:07pm
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Bump So seeing the complete lack of interest of people as far as selling the goes, it looks like im gunna just have to finish my project from hell... yay? So....List of problems: Clutch master cylinder has to be replaced and system needs to be bled. ECM grounding wires need to be rerouted ( they were incorrectly routed and got melted on the y-pipe) Need to re-wrap the wiring harness in the ?fireproof? tape ( anyone know where i can find some? ) Coolant tube return from the thermostat housing leaks and needs replacement Engine stabilizer strut needs to reinstalled Theres a hole in the exhaust about the size of toonie just before the cat ( im decent at welding should i try to patch it myself or take it to a shop? ) the nose was taken off and mickey moused back on. has anyone else had the nose off and have any tips for me putting it on right? drivers door bushings are shot? are they replaceable? plus the biggest problem im having is with irregular idle, stalling, and cherry red glowwing headers...... need to check for vaccum leaks (best way to do this is...), possible replace o2 sensor like patrick suggested any and all help is appreciated i need every little bit i can get -------------
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Posted By: Kyng_72
Date Posted: 12 December 2008 at 2:22am
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hmm glowing red Headers or Exhaust Manifolds not that I think it matters but which one is it. But the glowing red part could be because your engine isn't cooling down. How is your coolant flow? Did you check the Radiator, Fan, Water Pump and the Coolant tubes under the car, could even be a problem with exhaust valves? I had a similar problem in a project I did way back in highschool and turned out the Rad had a pinched tube that blocked some of the coolant flow and exhaust valves weren't closeing properly. ------------- as the average human male life span is around 72 and I am now 36 can I officially consider my fiero as my midlife crisis car? |
Posted By: beken
Date Posted: 12 December 2008 at 3:20pm
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I have headers as exhaust manifolds. They glow red a bit. It's normal. They barely glow at all at idle. Exhaust gas is hot.
-------------  Beken (aka Ken) - bekentech@westcoastfieros.com Original and still the owner of an 85SE 2M6 4spd |
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 12 December 2008 at 3:52pm
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Ken if your manifolds are glowing at all, it means there is excess flame front from the combustion chamber making it into your manifolds. Regardless of what your timing is, I would bump it up a few degrees. I would also consider getting a scan tool on your car to see what the O2 sensor is doing. If it says you are running Pig Rich, and yet you have glowing manifolds I would replace the O2. If it says you are really lean, I would look into fuel pressure issues. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |