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Porsche Club AutoX - Saturday, Aug 30th

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karnak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote karnak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2014 at 6:57pm
ok. all rested from a great day. no rain till the end and a record 15 runs! yes folks 15! did I mention 15 runs? wow!

I am going to review some video but here are some pictures to start...





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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jim85GT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2014 at 7:28pm
Great course times, especially for the WRX. Looks like the
Formula was right up there with the top cars to boot.
Only thing I noticed in the first picture was, the Silver
Corvette owner was cooling down his engine with the hood
up. I guess you were cooling down your radiator?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jim85GT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2014 at 7:29pm
Hope to see your Video soon.
Jim
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karnak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote karnak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2014 at 8:15pm
Here is a link to a run with a couple of spins
and here is our autocross host, taking the car thru the paces

I have plenty of my own video and I placed the camera all over the car but the wind noise is horrible and some is rather shaky... Patrick, perhaps you can stitch me together a good one.

these 2 should give you a good idea of the day


Edited by karnak
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AllanJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AllanJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2014 at 11:44pm
Are you still dizzy, Gary?

Cool vids. Thanks for posting them.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 12:42am

I just got home after visiting friends in Maple Ridge after autocross. I'm too bagged right now to post much, but it was a good day. LOTS of seat time!

Gary had a great day behind the wheel.  There is no way I beat him. (The timing sheet is wrong, I didn't get a 57.482 run.) Gary spanked me by three full seconds. You could almost say he... annihilated me!

I'll review my videos in the morning. My times were okay, but I killed more cones than usual. It's going to be ulgy.



Edited by Patrick
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AllanJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AllanJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 9:38am
I was just looking at the times (too tired to look at
numbers last night) and Gary, you did fantastic! You kicked
Bill's butt (997 GT3).

Tough course for your car too due to the gearing and Rich's
video shows that aspect a lot.

My hat is off to you, Bro! You did a great job.   
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Patrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 12:10pm

Originally posted by Jim85GT Jim85GT wrote:

Only thing I noticed in the first picture was, the Silver Corvette owner was cooling down his engine with the hood up. I guess you were cooling down your radiator?

Jim, that picture was taken before any racing occurred. The hoods were raised for tech inspection. Part of what is checked out is whether or not the battery is securely held down... and my battery has been relocated to the front.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 12:17pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Gary, you did fantastic! You kicked Bill's butt (997 GT3).

Gary kicked Bill's butt, as did I , but Bill was actually driving his V8 powered 240Z.



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karnak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote karnak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 3:59pm
i need to see where the top times were but i did give it my all and was happy with the result. i wish you were there, Al. it would have been a good one

Patrick, you did do well! ...and a video would be a great way to show it...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote AllanJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 4:33pm
Gary, two of your runs were awesome (58.3 and 58.5). Do
you remember what you did differently or what the "feel"
was during those runs compared to the others? Think hard
about it and try to identify the source of that feeling.
Burn that memory into your brain and keep searching for
that when you autox in the future. You did really well.

It would have been fun to drive with you or even watch
you kick butt. On Saturday I was in no shape to drive
anywhere on account of that kidney stone so I didn't even
drive to the car show at Crescent Beach. I'm *still*
suffering from a 'morphine hangover' and feel like crap.
I hate that stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AllanJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 4:39pm
btw, by my count you came in 7th place overall.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 6:26pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Gary... tough course for your car too due to the gearing and Rich's video shows that aspect a lot.

Yes, we could certainly hear the rev limiter kicking in as Rich abused, I mean drove the 914/6.  He had the luxury of being able to run the engine RPMs as high as he did.

On the other hand, I was struggling with whether or not to go for 3rd gear in at least one of the fast sections. My stock 2.8 doesn't have the ability to breathe very well much past 4000-4500 RPM. Yes, it will rev up to 5500 RPM, but it's making no power up there. The downside of going for 3rd is the messing about (and possible screwing up) of downshifting into 2nd for the upcoming sweep(s). I decided to go for it late in the day... and was quite pleased with how it felt.

I had no trouble double-clutching and downshifing quickly when it came time, and I felt that in doing so, not only did I possibly gain a tiny bit more speed (while in 3rd), but dropping the tranny suddenly into 2nd and quickly releasing the clutch just before the sweep seemed to help slow the car down in a manageable way and IMO assisted in getting the car under control through the sweep (more so than simply leaving it in 2nd the whole time). For me it was a win-win situation, and I only wished I had started doing this earlier in the day. I'll upload two videos which will hopefully demonstarte what I'm rambling on about.

Here's the course map (with a red arrow indicating where I began shifing into 3rd).



Edited by Patrick
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 8:14pm

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

Patrick, you did do well! ...and a video would be a great way to show it...

Oh, I did okay. I'm just getting tired of being passed by my ass end on a regular basis. And of course, I still have David Twitchetts' words ringing in my ears... "Get rid of those tires", referring to my Kumhos. His Subaru WRX is awfully fast out there, so he must know something of which he speaks.

I don't think I'll spring for new Dunlops (as recommended) quite yet, but talking about "spring", I definitely want to change my front ones for something stiffer for next season. These lowering springs just aren't doing it for me. They're definitely better than the stock '88 springs, but I feel that they're still not stiff enough for autocross.

Anyway, here's a couple of videos. I expermented with a different place to mount the camera and I don't like it. Too much wind noise (even with the sunroof and passenger window closed), and the perspective sucks.

First video is 3D (and/or 2D) and demonstrates how not to take a sweeper... and I use a bad word.  (In this run, I didn't upshift to 3rd gear.)

Click for video - Spinout - PCA-CRW autocross - Aug 30, 2014

Second video is my last run (15th) of the day, and my fastest. I'm afraid there are a few mistakes on the timing sheets (I didn't get a 57.432 on my 10th run), and I also didn't get what was shown on the sheet for this run. It was 61.13, and I'm pretty sure I didn' t clip any cones. Notice how I upshift into 3rd in the middle of the course (just for a couple of seconds) and then back into 2nd for the sweeper. It felt good to me, and I plan to do that more in the future... unless the Johanson Garage can assist me with getting some extra top end out of this engine.  

Click for video - Best run - PCA-CWR autocross - Aug 30, 2014



Edited by Patrick
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AllanJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AllanJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 9:40pm
/start peanut gallery comments

Patrick, for your spin, that turn didn't leave you a lot
of room to adjust your line so my guess is you held the
tight steering angle and lifted off the throttle or kept
braking into the turn. The outcome will be a spin no
matter what. You needed to scrub off more speed before
entry.

Better tires will increase the speed you can drive before
you spin, and in this case you may have made it if you
had better tires. Then again, with better tires you'll be
going faster and you may develop a tendency to overdrive
those tires too and end up in a spin.

Ultimately, you need to drive to the limit of the tires,
no matter if they are crappy or sticky.

Now the BALANCE of the car, front to rear, is something
to think about. What is the tendency of your car in low
and medium speed turns? Understeer? Oversteer? What part
of the turn do these things happen? Can you adjust your
driving to deal with it or do you really need to tweak
the car? I love adjustable shocks for fine tuning. When
you don't have those then you're left with sway bars
(maybe) and finally, tire pressure. Soften the end you
want to stick better. If the car is tail-happy and
driving adjustments only get you so far, lose a little
rear tire pressure (adjust in 2 psi increments) and see
how it feels.

/end peanut gallery comments

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Post Options Post Options   Quote karnak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2014 at 9:12am
i did try 3rd gear in the beginning and it did not feel right, and it later occurred to me that i was shifting too late (when i got home). the other part we all had to deal with is the change in grade of the pad. turning, while rising and falling can have an interesting effect on the car. my best times came from a lower, but more consistent throttle (still hit rev limiter) but driving a tighter line. i noticed that Rich hit the rev limiter earlier in every case. a good argument for getting on the gas sooner. a jerky steering angle around the sweepers was also something i had been doing wrong. Rich pointed it out to me early on and i did my best to correct that.
i like your videos Patrick. i may take one of mine and attempt to filter the sound a bit to see if they will show my line on one of my faster runs. my bracket is a bit shaky also..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2014 at 4:17pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

/start peanut gallery comments...

Peanut gallery comments are more than welcome. Some sensitive folk can't tolerate constructive criticism. I encourage it!

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Patrick, for your spin, that turn didn't leave you a lot of room to adjust your line so my guess is you held the tight steering angle and lifted off the throttle or kept braking into the turn. The outcome will be a spin no matter what. You needed to scrub off more speed before entry.

I don't believe I touched the brakes at all once I was in the sweep. I try to commit to whatever speed I'm at once I've entered a turn (after having hopefully slowed downed enough prior to entering it). However, I suspect I am guilty of lifting off on the throttle a bit too much at possibly inappropriate times (which is probably taboo for a mid/rear engined car). I often think it would be quite educational to have a second camera trained at my feet so I could see for sure what the heck I was doing at any particular time.

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

...tire pressure. Soften the end you want to stick better. If the car is tail-happy and driving adjustments only get you so far, lose a little rear tire pressure (adjust in 2 psi increments) and see how it feels.

I find it rather confusing to actually find the best tire air pressure, other than to rely on chalking the tires and/or using the little indicators on the sidewalls. I try to adjust the air pressure so the tire tread doesn't roll beyond the specified point. With the '84, 28/front and 27/rear seemed to work best. Using the same tires/wheels on the '88, it's now 33/front and 34/rear. I'm a little puzzled why the pressure needs to be so much diferent, but I attribute that to the fact that the '88 is heavier... with the bulk of that extra weight in the back (the V6 as opposed to to the 4-banger).

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Now the BALANCE of the car, front to rear, is something to think about. What is the tendency of your car in low and medium speed turns? Understeer? Oversteer? What part of the turn do these things happen? Can you adjust your driving to deal with it or do you really need to tweak the car?

Now granted the '84 with the duke didn't have the same power, but dammit, I felt comfortable going into corners. I don't feel this way with the Formula, even though it has the superior '88 factory suspension. The '84 felt much more balanced. When it started to lose traction in a turn, it would tend to just to drift sideways as opposed to having the ass end come around. Now that was after adding a rear sway bar and stiffening all four corners with two coils cut off all springs. The ride was stiff, but I loved it. The car felt predictable.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy driving the '88, but I don't feel the same measure of comfort going into corners. Yes, I may be going faster now when approaching a corner, and I certainly brake hard to slow down, but I continue to feel like I'm hanging on for dear life in every high speed turn. I enjoy the thrill, but this doesn't equate with getting around the track any faster. Despite my frustration, I am having fun. I'd just like to maximize my potential, whether that be fine tuning my driving... or my car.

I have a set of The Fiero Store's lowering springs on the '88. I like the stance, and the ride certainly isn't soft, but it's nowhere near as stiff as the '84... and I'd like it to be. I can feel the '88 rolling a bit when turning sharp and I'd like to get rid of that. There are factory sway bars front and back, with zero lash end-links and poly sway bar bushings in the front. The rear has the factory rubber bushings in the sway bar and end-links. Both cars have basically the same struts/shocks.

Gary has convinced me to change one thing at a time (so at least I'll know what has or hasn't made a difference). I'm thinking that installing stiffer springs in the front is the way to go, especially when keeping in mind the way the ass end swings around. The stiffer front springs would reduce the roll, and hopefully help to keep the rear of the car behind me where it belongs.

So Allan, please continue to comment on anything to do with my driving or of the car if you think it might be helpful. I value and appreciate everything you've had to say, and I promise my ego won't be bruised no matter what you might wish to add.



Edited by Patrick
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Patrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2014 at 5:17pm

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

i like your videos Patrick. i may take one of mine and attempt to filter the sound a bit to see if they will show my line on one of my faster runs. my bracket is a bit shaky also..

I'm seriously considering buying a remote audio recorder, such as can be seen discussed HERE.

If I get one, I plan to construct a bracket to mount by the rear license plate to hold the recorder in during autocross. I have found in the past (using those cheap little eBay thumb-sized cameras) that audio recorded back there is perfect. The sound of the engine/exhaust and squealing tires comes through loud and clear with NO wind noise. It's... beautiful.  An example from the video vault is HERE.

It's a relatively simple matter during the editing process to match up the recorded audio file to the appropriate video file. So that frees up where the camera can be mounted big time, as wind noise would no longer be an issue. Hallelujah!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote AllanJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2014 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

i did try 3rd gear in the beginning and
it did not feel right, and it later occurred to me that i
was shifting too late (when i got home).

Good. Keep this in mind for the future. Next time this
situation comes up you will be more aware about shift
timing.

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

the other part we all had to deal with is
the change in grade of the pad. turning, while rising and
falling can have an interesting effect on the car.

Don't I know it! Check out this short video of me
at ORP with hot tires and lifting off the throttle in a
turn that has elevation change.

Video
Link


Normally I catch these things but this time I didn't.
haha!


Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

my best times came from a lower, but more
consistent throttle (still hit rev limiter) but driving a
tighter line. i noticed that Rich hit the rev limiter
earlier in every case. a good argument for getting on the
gas sooner. a jerky steering angle around the sweepers
was also something i had been doing wrong. Rich pointed
it out to me early on and i did my best to correct that.

A tighter line is a shorter distance which often equates
to a lower time. You always need to balance adding
distance to requiring carrying much more speed to make up
for that extra distance.

The more times you have a clear example like this that
you experience for yourself, the better. These issues
will stick with you and what you'll find down the road is
that rather than noticing and correcting issues like this
in run #8, you will adapt in run #5...#3, etc. Soon
you'll be like other very experienced drivers where you
will recognize and adapt your driving right away.

Edited by AllanJ
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AllanJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AllanJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2014 at 9:31pm
Hey Patrick,

I know you want to learn so that's why the peanut gallery
spoke up. :) Kudos to you.

As my video in the post above showed, a simple lift when
you have plenty of steering wheel input is all you need
to spin. This is what you did. A lift moves the weight
transfer to the front, unloading the rear tires a bit and
then they can come loose.

That's why you want to get most of your turning done
before the apex of the turn so at the apex you are
unwinding the wheel (reducing steering demands) while
getting on the gas. Getting on the gas moves the weight
transfer to the rear, giving you more grip at the rear.
This also reduces the weight at the front, giving you
less grip up front. Good thing you are unwinding the
wheel then. Think of when you don't do this.....what
happens? Think of "understeer"; that horrible shuddering
or plowing coming out of a turn where you want to get
down the straight and are on the gas a bit but your car
isn't turning and you mow down some cones at the exit of
the sweeper.

To help control the understeer or oversteering traits of
your car in a turn, you need to fully understand these
issues. So in the case of your spin in that tight
sweeper, you had more turning to do at the start of the
spin (you didn't want to hit that cone at the exit) - so
you didn't have enough grip at the rear for that speed
and the spin showed you had plenty of grip up front (car
"oversteered"; steered too much!). The ideal line there
was to get slowed down a bit more at turn entry and get
the car rotated more during entry so you could accelerate
out of the turn. You simply carried too much speed into
the turn and lifted or coasted through the turn while
feeding in a ton of steering. The combo was too much for
your tires.

For tire pressures, you need to play with them. Generally
speaking, higher pressures are required for heavier cars,
but IIRC I ran 34psi at the rears of my car and it's
several hundred pounds heavier than yours. Factory wanted
39psi for the rear of my car for street. That wasn't
where the grip was at autox. The race track is different
and I run 38psi there with the tires I use.

Try dropping the rear pressure a few lbs.

The ideal method is to align your car and tune the tire
pressure so the temperatures are equal left/centre/right
on the tire tread under hard cornering. This shows the
tire tread on the outside tires are flat on the asphalt
in a hard corner. You need a pyrometer for this and a
helper to take the temps immediately after loading the
tires and getting them hot. I have a pyrometer.

You might be better served with a slightly stiffer front
suspension, but be careful here. A novice mistake is to
think stiffer is better. Body roll is fine, as long as it
isn't hindering your cornering. If you are hitting the
suspension bump stops in a turn, that's bad. Mild roll is
fine, and good for the undulating pavement at the
skidpad. Especially for the street and a racetrack like
ORP. Too stiff and you'll be demanding a ton from your
tires and will "skip" across undulations in the pavement,
and this lack of grip isn't good.

When I was at ORP last time, it was really hot and my
grip in the morning sucked. So I softened the shocks and
the grip went up a lot and I eventually set a new
personal best lap time. Remember what I did; I softened
the suspension!

Gary is right though. Do one thing at a time so you can
better learn how these changes affect the car. I can type
and type and type, but if you are anything like me then
you will learn best by living it rather than reading it.
Keep what I'm saying in the back of your mind and next
time you're out there, pay close attention to the car and
what it's doing, early in the day. Really learn what it's
doing. Cause and Effect kinda thing.

Cheers,
Allan
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