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GT failed AirCare, need advice.

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Capt Fiero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2008 at 12:34pm
The only answer to a plugged muffler is to replace it. You really can't "clean" it out.    On a cost basis, trying to get a shop to replace your Fiero muffler will cost you as much in parts and labor as just buying a complete exhaust system from one of the major vendors like the Fiero Store or West Coast Fieros.   

When you do get the car through, please post up the Air Care results.
Capt Fiero
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2008 at 3:13pm

Originally posted by Capt Fiero Capt Fiero wrote:

   

When you do get the car through, please post up the Air Care results.

Oh, believe me, I'll be sharing the results.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2008 at 8:41pm
Here is the breakdown on my 88GT. I am really worried about taking it in next week.



And here is the last time it went though.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2008 at 9:44pm

Originally posted by Capt Fiero Capt Fiero wrote:

Here is the breakdown on my 88GT. I am really worried about taking it in next week.

Although you've had a couple of high readings in the past, what makes you worried this time around?


 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2008 at 12:01am
Its my idle hydrocarbons.   I believe when the motor was built they installed a performance cam, however they decided to set the cam in with extra advance. Which in a carbed motor would be great, would allow the motor to make much more high end power, however the car idles poorly, and is hard to start cold due to the lower cranking compression. To add insult to injury, With the stock intake, the motor does not breath well enough to even take advantage of the mod.

I had to lean out the mixture a lot in order to get it to pass the 2nd time around.

Ah well such is life.

I just installed the stock ECM and stock Chip back in it and will try it next week. If it fails I have a new catalytic converter here to install.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 November 2008 at 2:18pm

Seems contradictory, but isn't/ My blockage cleared and stayed clear, so it was ok in the short term, BUT there was still stuff in the muffler, so it may have replugged in the future, and the performace may have been affected, so I ended up changing the muffler.

 

When I got the muffler off and rotated it there were pieces making a clanking sound and rolling around. Not cool!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:13am

Okay, I understand. Thanks Chay.

I found this image of the inside of a Fiero muffler. Looks like lots of places for debris to get stuck.

Well, it's stopped raining. Guess I should crawl under the GT today to see if I can figure out what's going on.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 5:44pm

Ah ha !!!

Progress today. I got the cat off and it's plugged solid. Surveying this mess, I can't believe the motor could even run.

Don't know for sure at this point if the muffler is affected or not, but looking at this current cat (it's not the original), I've got my fingers crossed that the muffler is okay.

I'll post some pictures looking in both ends of the cat. It's quite interesting...

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 7:27pm

Pictures as promised...

With all the symptoms I had observed (and with Chay's helpful comment about a possible "air blockage"), I suspected it was the muffler that was plugged (from the contents of the previous cat) because the current cat looked to be in such good shape from the outside.

Here's the top:

 

 

Here's the bottom:

 

Here's the outlet: (A little difficult aiming the flash down 10 inches or so of pipe.)

Notice how the "honeycomb" looks really good.

Are you now ready for the money shots, two pictures (with slightly different lighting) of the inlet?

Have a good look at why my GT was running so bad!

Remember what I was saying earlier in this thread about a fine white dust?

Originally posted by Patrick Patrick wrote:

When I was re-doing my ignition components a few days ago and revving the engine by hand while at the back, it seemed to me that I could see fine white "dust" of some sort flying out of the exhaust tips. Hmmmm.....

Well guess what poured out of the outlet (through the intact honeycomb) when I tipped the cat on its end? Yep, you guessed it - a fine white dust! I wasn't hallucinating after all.

I sincerely doubt that this very fine powder would plug the muffler. My fingers are crossed however that the previous cat didn't send chunks of its innards into the muffler.

I think I lucked out as this appears to be the best-case scenario. I can probably beat the rest of the honeycomb out of this cat and then just put it back on. Won't even have to bother buying a straight pipe.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 8:12pm
Good Lord that's horrid. I'm glad you finally got it all figured out. 
I wanna go fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2008 at 10:23pm

Here's the entire contents of my cat in the bottom of a bucket...

I put the gutted cat back on and started her up... What a difference in sound! 

Didn't get a chance to drive the GT yet after getting the exhaust back together. However, judging from the sound, it should go a heck of a lot better.

While I had the cat off, I took the opportunity to have a look at my front exhaust manifold from underneath. Well, I found the reason for the slight "tick, tick, tick" sound coming from it. The bottom bolt is broken off on #2 cylinder.  That's a chore for another day (next spring).

Next step is going through AirCare again. That'll probably be next week. Reports to follow. 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2008 at 10:52pm
That's wicked good. Glad you found the smoking gun.

After running it for a while it'd be interesed in seeing another log file to see if the blms numbers get back to around 128.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2008 at 11:03pm

Originally posted by CFoss CFoss wrote:

After running it for a while it'd be interesed in seeing another log file to see if the blms numbers get back to around 128.

You bet. Yeah, I'm interested in learning what the numbers should look like when the engine is (hopefully) running normally.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 1:07am

I filled up my gas tank as soon as I drove the car so I could work out what kind of mileage I was getting while the cat was plugged.

Are you ready for this...

9.4 miles per gallon.

John, I hope it's considerably better now or I'll be needing this PROM redone.

I will say that the GT feels a WHOLE lot healthier now. Sounds much better too!



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2008 at 5:34pm

Just want to add that last night was the first time since I unplugged the cat that I was able to take a decent run on the freeway (to the club meeting). Quite a difference in power!

The biggest surprise was that club members in the parking lot thought the GT was "quiet" when I pulled up.  ....

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2008 at 12:02am

I’ve uploaded another WinALDL log Here which was taken last night on a short 10-15 minute drive back to my place (which means the engine wasn’t absolutely cold when the log began).

Since my last log that I linked to earlier, I’ve unclogged the cat and the car goes a heck of a lot better! (I’ve also put the 180 degree thermostat back in, just in case anyone might wonder why the temperatures are different than last time.)

Please download it and have a quick peek if you understand these numbers. My concern is that the engine might still be running a bit rich. I’d appreciate some feedback on this before I take another run through AirCare. Thanks.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2008 at 12:51am

I got an informative PM from Chay (CFoss) regarding my WinALDL log. Much appreciated!

I've copied it here so that others might gain from his knowledge.

Originally posted by CFoss CFoss wrote:

Hey there. I looked at it. It looks much better to me.

At idle, the ecm is still compensating for a rich setup, having the blm at 120 still. The good news is that it seems to be successful there, as you notice the 02 readings are varying from low readings to high readings. This means you are in a band around stoich and it's probably ok.The low readings indicate a lean condition, leading me to believe that the fuel is within the ecm's capability to control. 

When the throttle is off idle, the blms are consistent around 132, which means the ecm is richening the fuel a bit (128 is the balance). This is a huge change from when the cat was plugged.

I'd take a shot at air care. You may still have too much fuel at idle, but it should show marked improvement and then you can contine from there if need be, because that would be conclusive proof you are on the right track.

Could any of you perhaps explain what's happening with the INT readings between 150 and 200. It demonstrates the same behavior elsewhere, but it's more noticeable there. What is actually going on when it peaks like that?



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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2008 at 3:12pm

This is some black magic eh?

 

I read somewhere that the ecm has a 'learn' flag (Toggle, either on or off). The idea is that certain conditions have to be met, then 'learn' will turn on, and the int values will start to affect the blm numbers.

I can't remember all the conditions, but two of them were that the car was running for a certain period of time, and the other was collant up to temp.

 

So, I have no idea what it is doing, but it's very likely that it's not affecting your fueling at this point, given that the collant is not up to temp. At the point referenced I believe a fule enrichment table would still be in play due to the reduced coolant temperature.

An int (integrator?) is a short term value which will move the blm in time. I've read that the int will not affect fueling that much, but the blm will. There is a weighting algorithm something like the follwing:

100% fueling (duty cycle) = cell value (programmed in eprom)*80%+blm*15%+int*5%

The idea is that the ecm will start off with the cell value as it's base, then get modified somewhat by the blm on a long term basis, then by the int a bit for short term changes.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2008 at 1:44am
Originally posted by CFoss CFoss wrote:

This is some black magic eh?

Yeah, that's for sure.

Thanks Chay, I appreciate your feedback.

In This thread I reported that I'm only getting 15.5 mpg, mostly city driving.

Is it reasonable to be expecting a lot better gas mileage than that if everything is performing as it should, especially considering I am NOT racing around?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Capt Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2008 at 7:38am
Is the INT your Intake Air Temp sensor?     Well if it is, a bad IAT sensor can cause poor gas mileage.  As part of your fuel curve is based on the IAT sensor readings, it will add extra fuel based on how cold it thinks the air is.   It could cost you 3-4mpg.
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