Just went to pick-a-part today to pick up cylinder heads for school. Spotted a 3.4L Grand Am while there which had it's side caved in, but a nice looking engine. Managed to tear the engine apart and grab the heads and lower intake plenum, with the intention of buying new valve covers later and getting a Fiero-looking upper intake plenum made. Will keep you posted as the story unfolds.

For those of you wondering, the 3.4 fits the Fiero, and is made of aluminum with splayed valves (Angled) and has better port rates than the iron heads from the Fiero.

Do you plan to use the same crap Fiero exhaust manifolds with these better flowing heads?

In regards to the intake manifold, a dual-plenum one like Chay is working on http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1625&PN=1&TPN=1 - Here would be sweet!

Dr.Fiero wrote: You can't even try. The port spacing and shape is totally different.

That's actually a blessing then.

LOL

Well, I'd like to get there as soon as I can. Like I said, I've already disconnected the DIS and module, as well as the headers, and I don't want to have someone walk up and take them.

Romeo wrote: I've already disconnected the DIS and module, as well as the headers, and I don't want to have someone walk up and take them.

I was out there late this afternoon and nabbed them. How much you willing to pay, fella? Your pockets are going to have to be deep... very deep.

.

.

.

.

Just kidding, just kidding...

Tristan, if you haven't gone out to Pick-a-Part today, I'd tag along tomorrow (or later in the week) if that would work out. The starter (actually the solenoid) has screwed up on the Fiero I'm working on, so I might as well go pick up a starter. Let me know if I haven't missed my opportunity to go out there with you. Thanks.

PS. It's not as much fun poking around in a wrecking yard in the rain, but I can't wait 'til March.

Romeo wrote: I get home around 3am. You want me to pick you up?

3am?

Let's work out a plan in PMs.

LOL.

In my defense, I also tend to get home at 3am most nights.

       T, please don't try to do this mod on your own car, I'd like to see you still driving a Fiero.   I don't know why the Dr. has not brought this up, but you CAN'T install DIS on your car as you don't have a crank pickup. Your Fiero intake WON'T bolt up, and the 3400 intake has the TB too far over so you CAN'T use the Fiero distributor.  There is a darn good reason that you see all the high performance 2.8's still using steel heads, its because there are no easy Aluminum head swaps out there.

 If you want to try this mod really bad, I may have a line on a $600 86GT, head about it from another club member and if he does not buy it, either he or I'll be posting the details on here.  Then you can chop cut and tweak all you want without risking your good daily driver.

ARTIC-1 wrote: car could go for as little as $200,an then you get everthing!!

Makes you wonder what wrecking yards pay for the vehicles in their yards... I've heard $50.

Now, did my homeworks:

Crank triggers can be picked up and slipped on the end of the crank, just before the harmonic balancer, providing the option to use DIS.

I actually had looked at re-doing the whole exhaust, but I'm thinking I may just look in reworking what's in place post-header already, welding that together to make it fit the new headers. A hack job, no doubt, but feasible.

I know that there's alot of work ahed of me, but I don't think that it's fair to consider this as extensive as an engine swap. As much as I'd *like* to be swapping internals, the engine itself will still be there at the end of the day, just minus some weight at the top.

Tristan and I had a successful run out to the wreckers. Tristan got his goodies and I got mine and I was able to grab a few items for Chay as well.

And best of all... It didn't rain!

But the mud stuck to my foot wear.

As an added bonus, I also learned how to make my interior, and I quote here, "100% better."

Romeo wrote: As an added bonus, I also learned how to make my interior, and I quote here, "100% better."

Go on, post a couple images of the improved version versus the original version. Night and day difference...

Romeo wrote: But the mud stuck to my foot wear.

That's why gumbies were invented, son.

Nah, they did that to help the struggling rubber industry in the 1940's.

I don't think I have taken any pictures of my door. Ever.

Romeo wrote: Well, heads are on hold for now until I pick up ball joints.

Are you getting them locally, or from http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=26_44 - Rodney ?

I'm thinking locally, as the car is making a lovely CHUNK CHUNK sound every time the G's shift. Shipping will take too long. lol

Romeo wrote: the car is making a lovely CHUNK CHUNK sound every time the G's shift.

I didn't hear anything like that when we drove out to Chilliwack a couple of weeks ago. What happened all of a sudden?

Tristan, this thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/106237.html - Here just came up at PFF. Do you have any concerns about excessive compression ratios once the heads have been swapped?

Originally posted by fierosound: The combustion chamber volume is very different between iron heads and aluminum heads.  You're better off swapping the entire engine.

Patrick wrote: Romeo wrote: the car is making a lovely CHUNK CHUNK sound every time the G's shift. I didn't hear anything like that when we drove out to Chilliwack a couple of weeks ago. What happened all of a sudden?

As to the compression ratio, because the valves have been reground and the seats as well, the compression ratio of the heads has been lowered somewhat (Albeit, decking will undo that). Aside from that, I'll have to switch to mid-octane gas most likely.

Romeo wrote: Patrick wrote: Romeo wrote: the car is making a lovely CHUNK CHUNK sound every time the G's shift. I didn't hear anything like that when we drove out to Chilliwack a couple of weeks ago. What happened all of a sudden? It was doing it a little when we went to Chilliwack, got steadily worse.  Now it sounds like the decklid isn't latching, or with heavy G's, like I have a bowling ball in my trunk.

Is this definitely worn ball joints that you're hearing?

I was aware that Gretchin was "floating" somewhat during lane changes, but didn't realize she was also coming apart at the seams!

Romeo wrote: As to the compression ratio, because the valves have been reground and the seats as well, the compression ratio of the heads has been lowered somewhat (Albeit, decking will undo that). Aside from that, I'll have to switch to mid-octane gas most likely.

Man oh man, I hope you're not setting yourself up for a big disappointment (and/or large expense). 

Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: The compression would be way too far off requiring a piston change to correct the problem...

When I take the Fiero's heads off, I'll just measure the head displacement in comparison to the 3400, that should give a ballpark.

And Patty, unless the Fiero has the largest heads in the world, it wont come close to a 13:1. These heads arn't retardly small sized, unless you deck the living daylights out of them.

Romeo wrote: And Patty, unless the Fiero has the largest heads in the world, it wont come close to a 13:1.

I never said they would or they wouldn't. I'm just a concerned citizen who's looking out for your interests (after reading a few things at PFF).  

Well, just finished unloading $400 on Moog Ball joints (I started reading up on the Rodney Dickman one's, and didn't like what I saw), so it's back to heads now.

A good friend of mine gave me something that should make the time spent working on the whole project easier, as it wont leave me without a car. I've just inherited a second 2.8L FWD rotating assembly! Pretty much everything on the heads is done (Although the exhaust ports still need to be polished), so now I'm turning my attention to headers (I'll be making my own, decided I didn't want the stock log type). Also, the friend who lent me the engine and I are looking into a dry-sump system (Overkill, for sure. But hey, while the engine's in the open, why not?). Following those, I'll re-design the rotating assembly somewhat (Displacement will remain the same, but lighter internals will be used, and domed pistons put in as well). Lastly, it's on to doing my own intake (Trying to make it still look like the Fiero intake) and then a quick engine swap.

Wish me luck!

Romeo wrote: Well, just finished unloading $400 on Moog Ball joints

...

Romeo wrote: I started reading up on the Rodney Dickman one's, and didn't like what I saw

Come on now, that's not fair. Either say what the problem is or supply a couple of links.

Romeo wrote: Well, either I could remain at stock heights, in which case it was cheaper for me to go to stock replacements... Moogs were adjustable

I dunno man, suit yourself.

http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=202&osCsid=2746a1a1e3d5c0e613a15530f6f1fe31 - Front Lower Ball Joint (no drop) - $18  

http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=201 - Front Upper Ball Joint (adjustable)- $20  

http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=206&osCsid=2746a1a1e3d5c0e613a15530f6f1fe31 - Rear Lower Ball Joint - $27.00  

Note - Receive 10% off from http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=26_44&osCsid=2746a1a1e3d5c0e613a15530f6f1fe31 - Rodney Dickman  on any purchase of 4 or more tie rods and/or ball joints (any combination).

Canadian Brokerage Fee Per Ball Joint: $30.

Besides, I was still concerned with the welding statement... So with the exception of the front upper ball joints, there's no particular interest in waiting 4-6 weeks for what amounts to about stock replacements.

Romeo wrote: Canadian Brokerage Fee Per Ball Joint: $30.

On an $18 item ????

Where the heck did you get that info from?

Have them sent through USPS, not through a private carrier such as UPS or FedEx, and any brokerage fees will be minimal.

Romeo wrote: Besides, I was still concerned with the welding statement...

There is NO welding required for any of the ball joints pictured above, including the non-drop front lower ball joints.

Tristan, I'm not trying to give you a difficult time, honest. I just don't want anyone reading these posts to be turned off a viable, cost effective alternative for quality ball joints because of misinformation.

Oh, I should mention they could be excellent products, just based upon my own experiences, they seem somewhat... Odd. Too late now anyways, Moogs are here to stay.

 Forgive me I am going to play both sides of the coin in this post, so bare with my rambling.

   Ok I was going to let it slide as Romeo had already bought the parts and me pipping up was not going to make a difference aside from making him look like a novice.  However Patrick did bring up a good point and maybe I should speak up.

All lower ball joints from the factory were press in, if your control arms are good, then a simple press in of ANY new lower is fine, however most people do put a tack weld on it just for the extra security because once the control arm is stretched for the first one, it does not magically stretch back.  

     So Rodney's regardless of what you read, can be used without welding, however most mechanics will recommend a tack weld, in fact anyone that does not say a tack weld is a good idea should be questioned.

    Now as to Moog, IMHO they are the best on the market.   As far as I know they were the first ones to offer the adjustable upper ball joints and now I think just about everyone has gone to the adjustable upper design.

     So there was no harm buying either set, just don't say that Rodney's are an issue because he recommends welding them in place. 

Capt Fiero wrote: Ok I was going to let it slide as Romeo had already bought the parts and me pipping up was not going to make a difference aside from making him look like a novice.  However Patrick did bring up a good point and maybe I should speak up.

I actually spoke up on February 2nd before Tristan bought the Moogs, trying to save him some money, but to no avail.

Patrick wrote: Romeo wrote: Well, heads are on hold for now until I pick up ball joints. Are you getting them locally, or from http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=26_44 - Rodney ?

We're just trying to look out for you buddy!

   If you flip to my Surgery thread, On Feb 2nd, I was in the hospital, under anesthetic, getting my knee cut open, so I think I might have missed that posting.

Capt Fiero wrote: ...so I think I might have missed that posting.

I think Tristan did as well.

lol

As I read it though, there hadn't been any mention of the press-fit in his little page for the lowering-type, which made it seem like they relied upon welding. That's where my concern came from.

And again, looking at the lowering ones, I still don't like the way they change the geometry myself. But that's personal taste, if you were making a show car, or didn't drive the car hard, I suppose there'd be no issue there.

Anyways, I'm planning to mill the heads a touch, and use 20cc dished pistons to offset the milling (End result of everything considered, such as gasket, deck height, pistons, combustion chamber, and pistons, it should be an exact 10:1). So, my hope is that shouldn't be high to warrant premium fuel, but if it does, I suppose I'll just have to suck it up. I've sent off requests to multiple companies to see prices and whatnot, but somehow custom forged just doesn't scream cheap, you know?

Romeo wrote: And again, looking at the lowering ones, I still don't like the way they change the geometry myself.

Actually, if I remember correctly from what I've read at PFF, most guys like these lowering ball joints (as opposed to lowering springs) precisely because the lowering ball joints don't change the geometry!

Romeo wrote: Anyways, I'm planning to mill the heads a touch, and use 20cc dished pistons to offset the milling...

So now you're changing the pistons as well in that 2.8 boat anchor?  Oh Tristan Tristan Tristan...

Hehe, good bye $750. =D

Anyways, by nature the ball joints MUST change the geometry if altered. The SAI (Where the weight is projected inside or outside the tire) directly relies upon where the ball joints are located, how they're angled and how large they are.

Patrick wrote: http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=202&osCsid=2746a1a1e3d5c0e613a15530f6f1fe31 - Front Lower Ball Joint (no drop) - $18   http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=201 - Front Upper Ball Joint (adjustable)- $20   http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_44&products_id=206&osCsid=2746a1a1e3d5c0e613a15530f6f1fe31 - Rear Lower Ball Joint - $27.00   Note - Receive 10% off from http://rodneydickman.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=26_44&osCsid=2746a1a1e3d5c0e613a15530f6f1fe31 - Rodney Dickman  on any purchase of 4 or more tie rods and/or ball joints (any combination).

From Rodney's website...

Note: You may have noticed that many auto parts suppliers and others have reduced their prices on ball joints and tie rods recently. This is because they are now selling made in (mainland) China ball joints and tie rods. All my ball joints and tie rods are made in Taiwan. Their quality is well proven. I will continue to sell made in Taiwan ball joints and tie rod ends only.

I don't know... Still sounds... Iffy? lol

Regardless, not concerned anymore, my Moog's are currently installed on my front end, will do the back end after the olympics.

Oh, and David, as to the tack welding thing, I brought that up with my teachers, and all three of them glared at me like I was some sort of psychopath. Ball joints will bend with excessive force, but the do that to relieve stress on every other component around them, so I'm told. lol

Romeo wrote: Regardless, not concerned anymore...

That's okay, the info is for other people's benefit at this point.  

lol

Just drove for the first time having put the Moogs on (Albeit, only the front axle) and the car feels fantastic, no longer leaning over on corners.

As a joke, my teacher also snuck in and adjusted my clutch to make it rather sissy-like while I was writing my test. Rather than having about 1/2" worth of movement from full-open to full-engage, it is now the entire length of the peddle travel, so I'll need to correct that tomorrow. lol

Romeo wrote: ...my teacher also snuck in and adjusted my clutch to make it rather sissy-like while I was writing my test. Rather than having about 1/2" worth of movement from full-open to full-engage, it is now the entire length of the peddle travel

That's great, you'll be able to drive that thing now without either stalling or lunging it forward!

Seriously though, what is there to adjust on a hydraulic system (besides making sure all the air is gone)?

No, I hate the way it feels now, I might as well not have the race clutch on there at all. It just feels so... Stock.

Romeo wrote: No, I hate the way it feels now, I might as well not have the race clutch on there at all. It just feels so... Stock.

Well, here's a question for you... Just why do you have a "race clutch" installed? Because you like having a clutch which makes it difficult to get rolling smoothly from a stop?

What in your mind is the benefit of having a "race clutch" in a street car which has minimal horsepower?

Romeo wrote: I also like the fact that it's pretty much my anti-theft system at the moment.

Heh heh, I'd prefer a street clutch and kill switch... but I'm old and boring.  

Well, the anti-theft system thing was mostly a joke (As after stalling it a few times, people usually just end up clutch-dumping), but the shift speed was not. I honestly HATE the way it is now.

And sorry, I didn't see that you had two questions. If the Fiero is like Fords, there will be two screws, independant from one another, in the clutch linkage. By adjusting them, you can adjust where clutch disengagement begins, and ends. Mine begins at the same spot, but ends at the bottom of pedal travel now (I think it's actually TOO low, as my reverse gear now grinds on engagement).

Patrick wrote: Seriously though, what is there to adjust on a hydraulic system (besides making sure all the air is gone)?

Romeo wrote: If the Fiero is like Fords, there will be two screws, independant from one another, in the clutch linkage. By adjusting them, you can adjust where clutch disengagement begins, and ends. Mine begins at the same spot, but ends at the bottom of pedal travel now (I think it's actually TOO low, as my reverse gear now grinds on engagement).

Tristan, what are they teaching you in school anyway?  There are no adjustments to be made with the Fiero hydraulic clutch. Hell, there's not even a clutch "linkage" (other than the simple banjo rod between the pedal and the master cylinder, and the slave rod/lever at the other end).

As David also mentioned, I suspect all that's happened is that you've now had air introduced into the system.

I severely doubt he'd have let air in - he teaches mechanics.

As to adjustment, the whole system is not hydraulic, there are a few mechanical components. In Fords, the adjustment is made as far towards the clutch fork as is possible.

Anyhoo David, thanks for the offer, but he's a good guy, he did this just to screw with me. lol

Romeo wrote: I severely doubt he'd have let air in - he teaches mechanics.

You make it sound like he's some kind of omnipotent wrench-pulling god.

Romeo wrote: As to adjustment, the whole system is not hydraulic, there are a few mechanical components.

Educate us dumb old farts at the meeting on Saturday night then.

Patrick wrote: There are no adjustments to be made with the Fiero hydraulic clutch. Hell, there's not even a clutch "linkage" (other than the simple banjo rod between the pedal and the master cylinder, and the slave rod/lever at the other end).

           Maybe Pat and I read it wrong, but you said he did something to make the clutch softer?  What did he do in order to accomplish that?

Romeo wrote: ...he's a good guy, he did this just to screw with me.

Well, he's done an excellent job of it!

We want to know what the heck he did. Phone him up... at home... right this moment!

Unfortunately, I don't get back in to school until the end of February. In the mean time, the suspense will have to eat you alive. =D

Well, somewhat off topic, just thought I've give a basic rundown of things I've bought, or have to buy yet, pertaining to the project:

Heads - Bought & P/P
Lower Intake Plenum - Bought & P/P
Upper Intake Plemun - Not made
DIS Module/Coil Packs - Bought
Headers - Not bought/Not made
Pistons/Connecting Rods - Haven't bought, don't know if I will this time around. Was going to do the rotating assembly at the same time, to save time, but the expenses are adding up.

On an unrelated note, just finished sending off my right headlight motor to be repaired and get upgraded internals (Metal gearing). Gretchin will finally stop winking everywhere I go.

I've heard that 3400 heads are better than one.

LOL!!!

Oh lordy lordy, that was damn good.

Whew, got a wee bit accomplished today. It's amazing what an hour and a half, two cutting discs and three showers trying to get metal slivers out can do for productivity.

Got the Doc's slave bracket off and Rodney's put on (Funny story about that later). I got my sway bar sporting three fresh coats of chrome (Ok, so it's chrome spray paint, but shhhh) and the energy suspension bushings were bought. Granted, I'm now concerned my ass-end will be way stiffer than the front. Will need to buy another set of bushings soon. Anyways, I also got started on Gretchin's new Frankenstein (TM) intake system. Those of you who have already been told about it (David and Patty) or those of you not wanting to read a long paragraph (Everyone else) about it may wish to skip the next paragraph.

Because the 3400 heads have the ports spaced differently, and because they're larger than the iron-head intake ports, the Fiero's lower intake plenum wouldn't bolt up, so I had to use the one from the 3400. I left the mid and upper 3400 plenums at the junkyard, because I wish to retain the Fiero upper intake plenum for looks, and because that doesn't line up with the lower plenum, I'll be fabricating a mid plenum to act as a transitional piece (Out of aluminum) between the two. Up front will be the 80mm throttle body of an LS1 (Go big or go home) followed directly by the air filter (A la speed density system. See here: http://www.eficonnection.com/coilpercylinder/33WillysCoilMount.jpg - http://www.eficonnection.com/coilpercylinder/33WillysCoilMou nt.jpg ) However, as the Fiero upper doesn't breathe too well, I decided to slit it open from about the throttle back, so I can weld in a 2.5" and 3" piece of pipe, significantly increasing flow capablility. Well, that's what I turned my attention to today, cutting into a Fiero intake from the scrapyard.

Gretchin's intake hacked and sliced.

More encompassing shot of my chainsaw (Er, grinder) massacre.

The shiny thing is the sway bar.

Ooohhh, CHROMANCE.

Now, obviousy I still to finish hacking open the intake, and then smoothing out where I've cut. From there, I'm going to smoothen out the inside of the intake next (Where it says "Fiero" there's a mammoth ridge) followed by as much of a polish as I can get. I will worry about welding and painting last (Don't suppose anyone happens to know what paint that intake uses, do they?)

OH! And I almost forgot my little anecdote pertaining to the slave bracket. After I did the slave bracket, testing the clutch had to make way for another coat of spray on the sway bar. "I can check later. It was fine last time, I'm sure it's fine now." said the naive voice in my head. So, off to play around with other things I went. Well, at around five today my dad hopped in the car, and everytime he went to turn it over, it would lurch forward. Now, I was upstairs, and knew immediately what was going on, and hauled downstairs at a speed so fast I may have bent time. Once I got down, he had the car in neutral, running. "DON'T PUT IT IN GEAR!" I yelled "SHUT IT OFF!"

Well, my dad being the "expert" that he is knew that if he just revved it to about 3000RPM and tried to jam it into first and... Oh dear, well... I never liked having synchros anyways. After he and my brother left (After a "heated" discussion between dad and I) I gravity bled the clutch again, which is once again working, but not as ridiculous as a remember it being. I might need Dave or the Doc to take a look for me, tell me what I'm doing wrong.

ARRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Got tired of using my dad's broken grinder today, so I went out and bought myself one. Nothing special, just a 4.5" disc model with an auto-locking on/off switch. Cost me just a hair over $80 (Doesn't sound like much to you guys, but to me, that's probably the most expensive tool I've ever bought) as well as two grinding discs, two cutting discs, two sanding discs and a scuff pad, which then brought the total to about a hundred-ish. Seeing as how Joe really likes to help me, I let him come out and help me again today. He was my hammer guy (When a piece is hanging on my a thread, he taps it out) and my cord guy (Makes sure the grinder cord stays plugged in to the extension cord, which tends to be rather loose. It wont stay in the right spot on it's own). After about twenty minutes of usage, I was cutting through the EGR port on the intake, but because of the metal bulk there, the grinder kept snagging, so I asked Joe to grab the intake with two hands and hold it steady. Problem was, when he put the entension cord down, the connection to the grinder was broken and it would turn off. I kept setting it to the right spot, and it would move a bit and lose connection again. Having previously cut through the metal gasket, Joe grabbed a nice big piece of it, and before I could see what he was doing, jammed in between the cords to pry it to the right position. Well, due to the 120V short taking place, where the cords connected both burst into flame. I grabbed the cords and yanked them apart as fast as I could, but it was too late for either. The extension, which was actually a treble light, has melted the rubber handle to the point where it is now covering both outlets. And my twenty minute old grinder now has it's prongs sitting on about a 1/8th" piece each (The short acted like a MIG welder and literally cut through most of the metal) and I now consider it way to dangerous to use (I will buy a universal outlet set later and see if I can't fix it).

That IDIOT child was somehow fine through the whole thing (Rubber gloves probably helped) but is now spending the rest of the day in his room. I get to spend the rest of my day buying a universal outlet of sufficient amperage, buying another treble light and being just generally pissed off.

Invest in a ground fault receptacle! (Although this wasn't technically a ground fault problem, it certainly doesn't hurt to have tools used outside protected in this manner.)

Romeo wrote: The extension, which was actually a treble light...

Well, there's your problem. Should've been a bass light.

Nah, there's a plug in on the side of the treble light. And while I'd normally appreciate the pun, I'm just in too poor a mood. It was like TWENTY MINUTES OLD.

DAMN IT.

Romeo wrote: And while I'd normally appreciate the pun, I'm just in too poor a mood. It was like TWENTY MINUTES OLD. DAMN IT.

Aw hell, in a few hours, days, weeks, months, years, or possibly decades (depending on how long you hang onto a grudge), you'll be able to laugh this off and realize it for what's it worth... a great story!

Be grateful that Gretchin survived the ordeal unscathed. I hear them things catch fire!

Sorry man. If I owned a grinder, I'd bring it over.

No need, I think I'm just going to grab a file for now. Clean up the area around where the welds will be going. Maybe sand up the insides after.

Grr...

Bah, well a good few hours with a file has smoothed out the one end of the cuts, smoother the edges of where I cut (Less turbulent) and a hammer has knocked out some of the other pieces I had started on (Notably about two thirds of that damn EGR diamond). Tomorrow I'll buy another grinder, possibly a pair of C-Clamps and start again.

Less "grr-feeling" feeling now.

I'll try that first, but I'm assuming the worst first.