Front Brake Issue
Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Technical Topics Forum
Forum Name: Technical Questions and Discussions
Forum Description: Got a technical question about your fiero? ask it here.
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1723
Printed Date: 24 April 2025 at 6:24am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Front Brake Issue
Posted By: Roadfury
Subject: Front Brake Issue
Date Posted: 11 February 2010 at 6:24pm
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So the front brakes on my 85GT are sticking. Both sides. I dont think it's the caliper because the pistons still slide back when you put a c-clamp on them. They also become "unstuck" when you pry between the hub and caliper. The rotors are pretty worn, there is a lip on the outside of them, and the pads are brand new. Also bled one side quick and it was pretty gross, and had some crap in it. Suggestions?
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Replies:
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 11 February 2010 at 6:37pm
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In the first thread where you brought up your "sticking" brakes, I suggested you have a look at http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1690&PN=1&TPN=1 - This thread as it may be relevant. Take the calipers off and check to see if the sliders are in good shape or not. Lubricate and reassemble. And you should at least bleed all the calipers until clear fluid comes out.
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Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 11 February 2010 at 6:52pm
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Thanks Patrick, I did do that, the sliders were fine, i cleaned them up and never-seazed them, i will be doing a more complete bleed job tommorow though -------------
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 11 February 2010 at 10:42pm
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What exactly do you mean by "never-seazed them"? I hope you didn't apply anti-seize compound to the O-rings and polished surface of the caliper sliders!
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Roadfury wrote:
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 12 February 2010 at 3:25am
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If you can't press the piston in by hand with the cap off the master, I would replace both front brake hoses. I see happen a lot the hoses as they get old start to collapse internally, and only allow fluid to move in one direction. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 13 February 2010 at 11:41pm
My shop teacher told us to do it that way, and thats what my dad recommend when I did that, I've never heard you shouldn't put never-seaze on the sliders, so I google'd it :P, and it seems to have sorta a 50-50 split of people saying use it vs people saying don't use it. But anywho, we bled the fronts again and with no pressure applyed to the brake petal after taking your foot off them with the bleeder screw open there was still fluid being pushed out, so I replaced Master cylinder and calipers and problem solved. -------------
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 13 February 2010 at 11:49pm
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Are you sure you (or they) aren't referring to putting anti-seize compound on the threads of the caliper slider bolts? It's a special lubricant (such as http://agscompany.com/downloads/datasheet/brake_lubricant_-_tds.pdf - Sil-Glyde ) that goes on the sliders and O-rings, not anti-seize compound! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDU1Azqjtz8 - How To Grease Brake Calipers
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Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 12:01am
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Permatex® Anti-Seize Lubricant A highly refined blend of aluminum, copper and graphite lubricants. Use during assembly to prevent galling, corrosion and seizing and to assure easier disassembly. Temperature range: -60°F to 1600°F (-51°Cto 871°C). Salt, corrosion and moisture resistant – ideal for marine use. Non-aerosol version meets Mil Spec #907E. Aerosol - Level 3*
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anti seize is a lubricant, but yes the teacher demo'd the complete re-assembly with coating the pins in anti-seize, and my dad did the pins on the passenger side with me doing the drivers side right next to him. Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 12:03am
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... I'm not trying to be rude here, but I honestly don't think you should be doing your brakes!!!
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Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 12:42am
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Ummm....I'm going to chime in hear and say it's very common to put anti-seize on caliper slides. Be they shoulder bolts or otherwise. Anti-seize compounds are high pressure lubricants that work well on slow moving surfaces like calipers. They're very thick and dense which makes them stay put and also makes them less likely to run when the calipers get hot.. You need to be careful not to put too much on, just a thin layer is all you need. You don't want any getting on the pads. Cheers. DG ------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 12:58am
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... It may be "common", but is it wise to do so? I'd think the last thing you'd want to lubricate the sliders and O-rings with is something that has fine metal particles in it. I'll have to google this... [EDIT] I looked around and found nothing from a reputable source that promoted the use of anti-seize compound (normally used on threaded fasteners) on brake caliper sliders and O-rings. If someone has a link, please post it.
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Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 10:30am
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Well I am going to chime in here too. I have always been under the impression that the metal particles in copper coat antisieze would damage the rubber O-Rings that the slides ride on, so I always grease the sliders with bearing/ball joint grease from my grease gun, then use the anti size on the threads only of the caliper bolt. So far it has always worked good for me doing it that way. I actually put a few pumps of the grease gun into the caliper slider hole before I push the sliders back in as there is reservoir of sorts inside there. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 12:40pm
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I can't comment as to the different make-ups of grease, but all the shops I've ever worked at have told us to grease the slide pins when doing brake jobs as well. Assuming you haven't used up a couple ounces worth, it should never enter the hydraulic system, or get in between the pad and rotor. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 14 February 2010 at 2:03pm
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I use a product called Never Seize. It's a slurry really. The particles are very very small. In this specific case, the O rings won't be damaged because the movement is so slow it's basically static. Grease is fine also. As long as the lubricant is still rather thick at temperature and stays put, you'll be fine. The main reason I like this product is it's a VERY high pressure and therefore high temp lubricant. It stays where you put it under huge loads. Even regular grease would get pushed away before this stuff moves. Over kill, you bet. But it certainly won't hurt anything in this application. DG ------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 15 February 2010 at 12:22am
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No offense Damien, but I'd still like to see something official on the use of anti-seize compound on caliper sliders.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 15 February 2010 at 8:52pm
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Just go to a dealership and ask them what they recommend, I can all-but-garauntee you they'll suggest the use of an anti-sieze compound on the slider bolts. There's literally no danger in using a non-abraisive anti-sieze, whereas there is a danger in not doing so (Binding). ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 15 February 2010 at 9:33pm
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I find it amazing that so far not one link to a reputable site from among the entire internet universe has been supplied by anyone which clearly states that anti-seize compound is perfectly acceptable to use on caliper sliders.
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Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 15 February 2010 at 10:24pm
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Patrick, not every mechanics trick is going to be found on the internet. Perhaps a better way to go for a researcher like yourself is to study up on lubricants. This way you can develop the base knowledge to make up your own mind. I assure you the science behind my comments is sound. Besides, have you actually found a reference that says this product shouldn't be used for this purpose? If not, what is the basis of your doubt? Why not take the advice of people that have done this for decades? Well, at least 2 decades....:) I've done at least 200 brake jobs in my lifetime and to my knowledge no one has ever had a problem with any of them. I'm curious, what kind of credentials would someone have to have before you would take their word on something like this? Some link to a site on the internet seems to me to pale in comparison to an experienced local club contact that has shown me that their head is screwed on right. Just something to think about, no stress. DG
------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 15 February 2010 at 11:02pm
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I'm leery of a product being promoted for a specific task when even the manufacturer's Technical Data Sheet mentions nothing about it being used for such a purpose. http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/81343.pdf - Permatex® Anti-Seize Lubricant Compare the properties of that product to this one... http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/24125.pdf - Permatex® Ceramic Extreme Brake Parts Lubricant Or this one... http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/20353.pdf - Permatex® Ultra Disc Brake Caliper Lube Damien, perhaps you could supply a link to the Technical Data Sheet of the particular product that you've been using on caliper sliders.
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Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 15 February 2010 at 11:46pm
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Why exactly? I constantly use products to accomplish tasks they were never designed for. It's called "thinking out of the box." Just because the tube says chrome polish doesn't mean it can't polish some other material......like plastic. Once you understand how the product functions you can then use it in other situations. It's done all the time. Again what is the basis behind your doubt? Just out of habit? I'd like to know. DG
------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 12:01am
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Besides Patty, I've been applying the lubricant I was told to in every shop I've ever worked in, doesn't mean I knew the name of what I was using. But again, can you at least point out where your concern stems from? What do you expect to go wrong from lubrication of the slide pins? ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 12:02am
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When it works, it's referred to as "thinking out of the box". When it doesn't work, well, there are a lot of neat phrases that could describe that as well. I don't understand why you are so reluctant to supply any info on the specific product you mentioned that you use. I googled and can't find much of anything on "Never Seize".
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 12:08am
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Fixed that for you. You're the one training to be a mechanic. You should be able to tell me.
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Posted By: Dawg
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 12:18am
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Because it's erelevant. I understand the properties of the base materials and have over 20 years of practical experience with this product. Anyhow, we've beaten that poor horse to a pulp. Unless you have something tangible to base you opinions on I don't see much point in continuing this thread. DG
------------- You dream it up....I'll make it |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 12:39am
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You feel it's "erelevant" to supply basic background information on a product you're promoting for use on brake components?? Fine, there's not much point discussing this any further then.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 12:57am
I fail to see what you mean by "improper" lubrication. Like I had said, anything non-abrasive will work fine, provided you don't go balls-out with how much you put on. It really is a challenge to try and do improperly... ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 9:46pm
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Technically your both wrong :D and technically your both right. Next time I do a brake job I'll probably use Anti-Seize again just because I've got loads of it here. Plus: It's copper anti-seize so the metal particles in it, theoretically, since steel is hrder then copper there should be no damage. (for example, if you take a piece of wood and try to cut through a bar of metal, its not going to happen. It's petroleum based so it is hard on o-rings, but when I pulled the pins out I saw no o-rings in the pins. The only o-ring i saw was on the piston which i didn't anti-seize. I could be wrong, I dont know, could someone confirm this? Also, other than people saying "don't do this" tech specs saying "use this other stuff" there hasn't really been any real reason why you cant use anti-seize. Not using anti-seize would be good though because, there is probably a good reason why manufactures don't want you to use it, (possible because silicon is cheaper to make than copper based anti-seize ) The petroleum based lube can in theory break down dust boots and o-rings. Here's a site saying why you shouldn't use it http://www.guzzle7pt3.com/cu.php (about halfway down) and here's the site directly contradicting that http://www.sealanddesign.com/category/7/Loctite/page/104/Lub ricating/cpage/49/Anti_Seize.aspx Until someone shows me a petroleum rotted (possibly mythical) caliper slide-o-ring or boot, i'll stick to anti-seize -------------
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 11:13pm
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If your caliper sliders aren't riding on O-rings, you've got bigger problems than just what lubricant you've used.
I see nothing on that page relating to lubrication of caliper sliders.
Was that a pun? I wanted to hear what the collective brain trust of Pennock's Fiero Forum had to say about this topic. See the resulting discussion http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/106542.html - Here .
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Posted By: Roadfury
Date Posted: 17 February 2010 at 5:42am
Where are they located though? thats what im asking.
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 17 February 2010 at 11:33am
The pin of the caliper sliders goes through a bore in the calipers. At either end of this bore is a rubber O-ring. The area between the O-rings is supposed to be packed with lubricant when being serviced. I don't know how you could not notice the O-rings when you were cleaning and lubricating this area.
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