Well, I gave in and ordered one...so if anyone in the club has a need for a brake and/or clutch bleeding unit, let me know...I picked up this one with the catch bottle, we can do a tech day:)...and since my Fiero is done except the clutch with the ATE Super Blue Dot 4, we can do my GA GT and get rid of the stock Dot 3 whioch I cannot remember when or if it has been changed...Cheers

http://store.motiveproducts.com/american-bleeder-kit--0252-p15.aspx - http://store.motiveproducts.com/american-bleeder-kit--0252-p 15.aspx

Sweet!

Now we just need to source a bulk container of that neat blue stuff.

Or see if you can get cost, I would want the Motul, that's my next upgrade.

I will say, after today being my second track event since my rebuild and Superblue fluid...my brakes felt great, stinky but great...pedal preassure was strong, started to fade around 3rd lap but eased off on brakes and more controlled throttle (taught how to save brakes today and had a chance to practise this), the Ate Superblue is a economical upgrade and safety upgrade

Read up here...the main issue is compatrability, and would you EVER hit those temps to require Dot 5...from my experience, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

Brian kindly dropped off his brand new brake bleeder at my place yesterday so that I could pressure bleed my brake and hydraulic systems before the autocross on Sunday.

To make a long story short, I can't get it to work properly. There's a supplied plate/seal that sits on the top of the brake fluid reservoir that's supposed to be held down air tight by four wing nuts/bolts and two chains that wrap around the bottom of the master brake cylinder.

I've cranked them all down pretty good and as soon as I build up any pressure (3-4 lbs) with the supplied pump, it hisses in one place or another somewhere around the "seal". To use this bleeder, it's supposed to be pressurized up to around 12 lbs.

I'm hesitant to really crank down on the wing nuts as I don't wish to collapse my plastic reservoir!

I even tried to use a modified factory rubber seal along with this plate while it was on the reservoir, but the rubber seal won't sit properly unless the factory "cap" is also used. (The factory cap sort of sits in the seal and pushes it out towards the edge.)

Any advice from anyone who may have used one of these devices?

Dawg wrote: I've noticed with mine that you need to try and center the "cap" on the plastic reservoir or it tends to rock slightly.

Good advice Damien, but this particular supplied plate is just barely large enough to cover our Fiero brake fluid reservoirs. There is no room for side to side movement at all, and only about a quarter inch front to back.

Dawg wrote: Try that and try to gauge the amount of pressure applied between each chain tightener.  Make them even.

That's the key right there.

It's difficult to explain, but the bolt/wing nut chain assemblies are rather poorly designed. When tightened up the bolts end up being on weird angles and sort of get jammed in the slots in the plastic lid/plate that's supposed to be tightened down. This no doubt results in uneven torque being applied to the four "corners", and this then results in a poor seal.

With that in mind, I might see if I can put something under the master cylinder (as wide as the plate) so that the chains would be coming straight up after wrapping under it. Like this... U ...more so than this... V ...if that makes any sense! 

I cut out a piece of plywood basically the same size as the top of the reservoir to go under the master cylinder. This allows the chains/bolts to be sitting straight up and down. I've got the wing nuts cranked pretty tight, but the fricken thing will still only hold 4 lbs of pressure before it hisses and leaks. I'm starting to lose my patience as I've been baking in the open sun for hours fiddling with this thing.

I just don't think the rubber pad on the underside of the plate is soft/pliable enough to fit snugly/tightly enough on the top of the Fiero's plastic reservoir. 

I don't want to try tightening these wing nuts anymore. Something is bound to break if I do.

I'll try bleeding with 4 lbs of pressure. It'll be better than gravity bleeding, but not by much.

Dr.Fiero wrote: I'm pretty sure they were for use on the old style oval master cylinder that was all cast (one piece).  You'd be able to crank THAT sum'bitch down so tight it'd never leak.

Bingo, that's no doubt what it was designed for. Cranking that sucker down on a cast iron reservoir would probably be fine. On a plastic reservoir, not a chance.

Dawg wrote: ...you might need to rig up thumb screws on both sides instead of one.

If you look at that image I posted earlier you'll see that there are four wing nuts/bolts - two on each side. It's no good. It leaks on the ends.

Brian came over so he could see what I was dealing with. There's no way that plate (as supplied) is ever going to seal properly on a plastic reservoir. John's idea of using another piece of softer rubber is actually something that Brian and I were discussing as an option while he was here.

However, it would be best to simply have a plate supplied that seals and works as advertised.

Look what I found on the site:

Bassman wrote: Look what I found on the site...

Brian, it's difficult to see it in that picture, but I suspect that's the old style one piece cast iron reservoir/master cylinder. Sure, clamping down on that would work fine, but we'd probably still have the same problem with our plastic reservoirs. By the time we cranked that C-clamp tight enough to seal that hard rubber pad on the plate against our reservoirs, I'm pretty sure we would have cracked or flattened the plastic reservoir.

I'm more convinced than ever that the main problem is with the hard rubber pad. It's just not pliable enough to effectively seal (without a whole lot of force) against a relatively fragile plastic reservoir. 

I'm glad to hear that your contact at Motive appears to be interested in helping to resolve this issue. 

Very impressed again to receive a reply this morning...seems I need to arrange with Motive the correct adapters, here's the email content, and off to David's (see you shortly):

Hi Marco,

Yes the Fiero has a plastic reservoir, I triple checked based on your application guide to ensure I ordered the right parts/kit, it says bleeder 0105 and adapter 1105, hence why I bought https://store.nexternal.com/motive/storefront/american-bleeder-kit--0252-p15.aspx -  

I also hoped that this kit would have been good for also my 1997 Pontiac Grand AM, so the universal round does not look like it will work on either car, GA seems to need a 1108, uncertain is 1101 will fit the clutch on the Fiero, but at this stage I do not want to open the bag it came in until we confirm details.

I don’t believe I should have to pay the upgrade for the 1115, I may not have read the fine print as I should be able to trust your application guide...maybe update this thenJ.   For my purpose Marco, I will take your suggestion on what we should do here especially if we have to ship and exchange items, I certainly has no issues in paying for correct products...please advise.

I do thank you for your prompt replies also...Cheers,

Brian

PS: The whole shipping issues, customs changed the tracking code which neither of us had, so I had to provide a idea of what the box would look like, and the “e” for my last name was missed, so this was not matching up

From: motivesupport@gmail.com [mailto:motivesupport@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Motive Products Support
Sent: September 4, 2010 8:54 AM
To: Brian Browne
Subject: Re: Follow up on Order

Brian,

please see the note here at the bottom of the descriptions.

http://store.motiveproducts.com/rectangular-universal-adapter--1105-p58.aspx -  

Marco wrote: The Fiero has a plastic reservoir, correct?   No fix necessary to the 1105 - it's nearly impossible to get it to seal on a plastic reservoir- you just need to buy the correct part.   The issue with the plastic reservoir is reason we made the 1115.  We offer a $15 upgrade to the 1115 for those that have the 1105.

I'm curious how the metal 1115 offers an improvement over the 1105 in regards to sealing on a plastic reservoir. Does it have a softer rubber seal as well? If not, I'd be a little dubious of any substantial improvement in sealing ability.

In talking with Brian, who in turn is in contact with Marco (the fella at Motive), it appears that the rubber seal may indeed be a little softer on the metal 1115 as opposed to the plastic 1105. Let's hope that's indeed the case.

So, did I notice any difference after bleeding the brakes with Brian's bleeder?

Yes!

As soon as I stepped on the brake pedal I could feel a bit more firmness. Obviously there must've been some air trapped in the system previously. The biggest advantage of using the http://store.motiveproducts.com/ate-super-blue-1-liter-p16.aspx - groovy blue brake fluid is that it's so easy to tell when all the old fluid it outta there.

At the autocross on Sunday, the brakes felt really good. No pulling, no lockups, no fading (although to be honest we probably weren't on the course long enough each run to get the brakes overly hot).

I'm looking forward to trying Brian's bleeder on the clutch hydraulic system next and seeing if that makes a positive difference as well.

Update from yesterday and I just was lazy to post:

I have ordered 3 correct adapters which in value would be $135USD, Marco is providing for $50USD and I am keeping the current ones that came with the kit.

This means that the Fiero clutch and GA brake will have a sealed screw on which is awesome, and the metal retangular unit also...just need to have a couple plates made and buy a C-clamp as illistrated above...can anyone help me with the brace plates?.

So if we as a club require, pretty much have every type of adapter that should now work

Brian, great news! Thank-you very much for your efforts in acquiring the pressure bleeder and correct adapters.

I am glad he helped with costs, was getting up to $300USD for all...again VERY impressed with the communication and service with Marco at Motive even on a long weekend

So I can count on you Pat to help test the new adapters?:)...lol

Bassman wrote: I am glad he (Marco) helped with costs, was getting up to $300USD for all... So I can count on you Pat to help test the new adapters?:)...lol

For sure! I'll just make sure this time that I'm not baking in the hot sun for hours IF there's another problem.

By the way Brian, I know you'll probably say "forget it", but with the kind of money the pressure bleeder and all the adapters are now costing you, I think everyone (including me) who wishes to use them should at least slip you a token few dollars for the privilege.

Dawg wrote: I'm sure I have something here that will work.  I'll fab up whatever it takes....ok? You might want to have a look at my bleeder's clamping method.  If you like it, I'll make one for ya. The Dawg Bassman wrote: can anyone help me with the brace plates?.

Once we have the new adapter, let's get together and take a look...this certainly will be appriciated, certainly not fancy

Let's get the adapters and test out our options...thanks all for your support, this will be good to have for the club.

Question, how should I clean the unit out, contamination concerns with that crap DOT5 stuff:)...Alcohol?

Dr.Fiero wrote: Bassman wrote: Question, how should I clean the unit out I'd use isopropyl alcohol (the 99% stuff, not the 70%!). Swishel it around really well, drain it out, then use a hairdryer or something (since warm sunny days seem to be behind us) to gently dry it all out.

With the bleeder, could I flush the system with the alcohol as I would if it was fluid?...then add ATE?

Or do I have to flush with the airhose, etc. as last time...

Bassman wrote: Or do I have to flush with the airhose, etc. as last time...

If you use an airhose to blow it out, I imagine the air compressor would need to have a good air/water separator on it. Otherwise, you'd be introducing a lot of moisture into the system. Not a good thing!

Was curious as the adapters will arrive soon, and would be nice just to flush/clean the DOT5 out without having to change the slave, etc...plus clean the bleeder from the DOT5

Thanks...

Bassman wrote: ...would be nice just to flush/clean the DOT5 out without having to change the slave, etc

Brian, I'm just curious... Why the possible need to flush out your clutch line/slave so thoroughly with air and/or alcohol? Was there a need to be this thorough with your brake line when you did it?

[EDIT] Hang on, I think I just realized the difference. You have DOT5 (which doesn't mix with ATE) in your clutch hydraulics but never had DOT5 in your brake hydraulics? Or am I still confused?

Ya...picking up the adapters today for Post Office...I will update once I have tried the screw on caps and make sure they are correct...then we can chat Dawg for 2 x support plates for the brake adapter.

I did butn this for personal and club, let's chat and work out a date...do you have a covered area to work in, it's getting a little wet out now days

Bassman wrote: I did butn this for personal and club, let's chat and work out a date...do you have a covered area to work in, it's getting a little wet out now days

I currently reside in an apartment.  It is covered parking but not always much room to work.  I gather the wheels have to come off to do brakes...or can this be accomplished through my oversized thin spoked wheels?

Bassman wrote: Yipee...the round clutch fits!!!

Good news! I wanna try it!

Bassman wrote: ...the brake is MUCH bigger, but the rubber is still hard.

Not quite as good news. However, I'll be pretty interested to hear how well that works out on one of our Fiero plastic brake reservoirs.

Update...I am PISSED!!!

I have emailed now asking what the next steps are as the rectangular brake adapter does not work, will not hold pressure...the screw on round ones work very well...but for almost $300US now for a kit that does not work...BS, take this back and give me my refund!.

It will be interesting to see their response when this is their refund policy:

Returns due to customer mis-ordered items will be accepted after receiving an RA# from Motive Products. Items should be in an as new condition and with all packaging and parts. Items returned in a used condition or having been exposed to brake fluid, motor oil, or other fluids will not be credited a refund.  Customer is responsible for payment of shipping of mis-ordered items.  We highly encourage customers to review the application guide or call with questions to determine the correct application.  Should Motive Products have shipped an incorrect or defective item Motive Products will make all efforts in good faith to rectify the issue. Copy of customer invoice may be requested to verify date of purchase.

John, maybe I can buy an adapter simular to your and use it with what I have?...thoughts?

Ok, here's some pics...

Fiero Brake adapter, holding 12lbs psi:

Fiero Clutch holding 8lbs psi:

And my GA Brake holding 8lbs psi:

Bassman wrote: Got it working and holding 12lbs psi for over 10 minutes...all adapters work, who's 1st:)...lol

Tell me what I need to bring - when and where.

Do your wheels have to come off?...you can come over to my place, I am by Lougheed Mall, maybe next Sunday am...let's chat

kharmata wrote: Plenty of room through my wheels...

Kevin, not to scare you, but when was the last time the bleeders were loosened on your calipers? Or are they relatively new calipers?

Nothing can spoil your day faster than caliper bleeders snapping off (except for perhaps exhaust manifold bolts breaking off in the head).

Bassman wrote: Fiero Clutch holding 8lbs psi...

That's what my '84 autocross machine could use.

No real rush, as my clutch works, but if we had a chance to get together before the big day Saturday...

Patrick wrote: Bassman wrote: Fiero Clutch holding 8lbs psi... That's what my '84 autocross machine could use. No real rush, as my clutch works, but if we had a chance to get together before the big day Saturday...

Call and let's chat:)...

Bassman wrote: Call and let's chat:)...

Sorry Brian, I've been away from my phone (and messages) the last few days while teen and dog-sitting at Anne's place while she was in Kelowna for a reunion.

I'll be in touch Tuesday!

No worries Pat...

Well, new Purple DOT5 in my clutch, man was this easy, so lots of Blue & Purple running through my lines...Royal Purple maybe for oil...lol, Spring maybe

Test drove and nice and smooth...very happy, Patrick might be on his way today to do his...system cleaned and ready

Brian was up bright and early today and got his clutch hydraulics done before I was able to go over.

Now that he's perfected the technique , I'm heading over in about an hour to do the clutch on my '84. 

Okay, I've now got groovy blue fluid in my brake and my clutch hydraulic systems.

Thanks Brian!

Cheese wrote: Do you notice a difference with the different fluid (vs. DOT3)?

I don't think under normal driving that any difference would be felt. The blue brake fluid has a higher boiling point however, so under prolonged intense braking, there might indeed be less "fade" with hot brakes.

Having said that, I did feel a difference when the blue brake fluid was added to my brake hydraulics. Reason being was that I probably had a pocket of air trapped in the system somewhere and Brian's power bleeder pushed it all out. The blue color of the fluid greatly helps to determine when all the old fluid (clear and/or dirty) has been flushed.