Fuel Cells for Autocross/Performance.
Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Events Section
Forum Name: Performance Driving
Forum Description: Autocross, Road and Drag Racing discussions
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2152
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 1:47pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Fuel Cells for Autocross/Performance.
Posted By: Romeo
Subject: Fuel Cells for Autocross/Performance.
Date Posted: 29 October 2010 at 11:56am
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First and foremost, I have been looking it up, a bladder-type fuel cell is legal in BC and Alberta, but not in the United States on Public Roads. While there's no way an officer would be able to tell you had one, if you get into an accident and someone looks at the fuel tank, you're in trouble. Now that I've gotten the legal nonsense out of the way, I was wondering if anyone has looked into a bladder-style Fuel Cell for a Fiero, specifically those who do either racing, or high-G cornering rather often. Anyone wondering what a Fuel Cell is, I'll describe what it entails and what the benefits are. The Fuel Cell is a form of gas-tank that has been in use since 1990, and was interestingly pioneered by Nascar, before being adopted by FIA (Formula-series), LeMans series and ALMS. It was designed after numerous punctures led to fuel being on track, then being ignited by scraping metal of passing cars. Thus, the fuel cell was born. A Fuel Cell is effectively a plastic bladder, which is surrounded by a soft foam which is then encased in a metal housing. The bladder prevents sloshing, due to the fact when gas is consumed, it shrinks the size of the bladder, which always keeps a fuel pump pulling fuel, even when under high-G's. The foam encasement around the bladder both keeps it steady, as well as acts as a safety device. If any fires start in the tank, the foam will release a cloud of CO2 and extinguish the flame. Last up, the housing contains the foam shell, shields the unit from basic mechanical damage and is the actual mounting point for the unit to attatch it to the car. It can be made of aluminum or carbon fibre (Depending on budget) and has a ground strap attatched to it to discharge static build-up. The practical advantages of a fuel-cell are of course a constant supply of fuel, regardless of driving, increased safety (Although this is negligable on the Fiero, due to location of the tank) and lastly adjustable size (Again, negligable on the Fiero due to location). To make a short story long, has anyone attempted this kind of thing for the Fiero yet? If not, is there any interest to do so? Unfortunately, my budget doesn't allow me to pick up a gas tank at Pick-A-Part, but when I can, I'll try and pick one up and rip it apart and look at doing it, if only for a proto-type, to see how difficult it is. If it turns out to be not so bad, I'll post another thread (Or edit this post) with a step-by-step, for member's like Brian, Colby, Allan and anyone else who would benefit from it. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Replies:
Posted By: Car-2-Lo
Date Posted: 29 October 2010 at 3:48pm
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Count me in 
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 29 October 2010 at 4:07pm
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You laugh, but I already made a very-small-scale one while bored using just that. It leaked. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 29 October 2010 at 5:05pm
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You don't need a good tank for this, do you? It's possible someone in the club has a rusted one they've pulled out to replace and they'd be more than happy to get rid of it.
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Romeo wrote:Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 29 October 2010 at 9:18pm
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Oh no, in fact, I'd feel bad hacking open a good tank. If anyone has a tank they'd much rather see gone, let me know. Thanks! ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 12:46am
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Too bad it isn't legal in the US on public roads. Do to the crazy lawsuits in the US, I'd never do anything like this - ever. My absolute favourite race track is in Oregon so my car will be stateside a lot. (this is ignoring the fact my fuel system is fine running with a near empty tank under very high-g loads so I have no reason to do this mod personally) My friend has installed a racing fuel cell in his RX-7 race car. If you have any questions I can pass them along. |
Posted By: Colby
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 1:16am
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Interesting, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. I've only ever had problems with lack of fuel supply when my tank is nearly empty, and I'm usually too afraid of running out of gas to let it get that low.
------------- 88 Formula 5 speed |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 1:25am
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Well, as per the design of the Fiero (Long and skinny "Wiener tank") lateral movement isn't all too great a concern, however, physics are physics, and me being the OCD detail-orientated boy that I am, I'd like to do it, even if only to see how much it entails on a Fiero. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Car-2-Lo
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 9:42am
Bladder is least your problem, work on your suspension first so you won't get that lateral movement that you have now 
------------- Johnny-B-Good 
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 11:17am
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Suspension costs money. Money I most certainly lack. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 12:37pm
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Depends. When ya gotta go, ya gotta go.
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Posted By: Fire451
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 12:47pm
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try this as a starting point could help http://westcoastfieros.com/forum/uploads/Fire451/2010-10-30_124644_andy-fuel_tank.rar - 2010-10-30_124644_andy-fuel_tank.rar I know it is for a 88 but it could help
------------- 
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 12:47pm
That's what the side of the road's for. Silly Patty...  ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Car-2-Lo
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 2:34pm
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How about an easy bolt on light weight aluminum tank (good for a few fast runs)... 
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 3:50pm
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Option #2...
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Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 4:35pm
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I've been watching this thread since it started and I think dr.Fiero and myself have just kinda sat back and wondered why? 1st 2 important things. The Fiero fuel system lends itself really well well to not needing a bladder. Go out to your car right now. Fire it up, then locate the fuel pump fuse and pull it out. At this point, this replicates the fuel supply being stopped. Your car does not shut off instantly, it should run for a good 3-4 seconds which is more than enough time to make it through a hard corner. 2nd, Did you not know the Fiero fuel tank is already divided up by several internal baffles to all but eliminated fuel slosh? Hence why you can remove a Fiero fuel tank, with say 1/2 tank in it and flip it upside down and get hardly any fuel out of it. The baffles have small holes in the walls to allow a small amount of fuel to travel through to equalize them as fuel is used or added, however they are small enough that fuel is not allowed to slosh forward or backward. This is why you can run an Autocross course with maybe an 1/8th of a tank in your car and not run out during hard braking or cornering. A fuel cell is great if you are worried about crash safety or if you have a tank that does not have any baffles in it, however in a Fiero GM did their homework and designed us a very good tank for use in Racing and spirited daily driving. You would be far better spending your time on both engine and suspension mods. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 October 2010 at 6:28pm
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I'm pretty sure anytime I've done that (to reduce fuel pressure prior to changing the fuel filter), the engine dies in about one second. I can't swear to it, but...
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 31 October 2010 at 1:37am
In stock-applications, baffles are great. The Porsche GT3 comes with them too. Wanna know one of the few things the Porsche GT3 gains for race-trim (Cup RS)? A fuel cell.
No matter how good the baffle, fuel will still slosh. A baffle helps replicate a smaller tank as gas goes down, but a fuel cell replicates a 100% full tank at all times. And while an engine can run while leaning out (What happens when the pump pulls in air along with gas, it lowers the PSI to the injectors resulting in less fuel) it doesn't run well. As peak power-production occurs at around 12.5:1, at WOT you don't want it leaning out. Like I said to Johnny Boy, kinda just doing it as a pet-project, not overly concerned with time, as I have no intentions of selling it (If it turns out to be easy, I'll just post instructions). And the money wont be an issue if/when I find a tank, as I already have the exact foam required and the bladder (Although I don't have the accessories to all this yet, such as lines and whatnot). Unfortunately, I lack adequate funding to push further on my 2nd engine, and more importantly, finish off my suspension. Time isn't really an issue for either. Especially concerning ICBC screwed up my lisence again. Made for an interesting roadblock/conversation/fine. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 31 October 2010 at 9:11am
...that's because the racing rules require the safety of a fuel cell.  It's also a 100L tank too rather than the stock 60-ish litres so they don't need to pit all the time.fwiw, when I have R-comp tires on my GT3 I can still turn incredible g-loading values while driving my car with the fuel tank on "reserve". Baffles work fine with no fuel starvation issues. There's actually quite a few differences between the GT3 street car and the Cup car beyond the fuel tank, but that topic is better discussed over beer and not in this thread.  |
Posted By: Car-2-Lo
Date Posted: 31 October 2010 at 10:23am
Then Option #2 is the way to go for now, (light weight Hefty Racing bladders) may not look cool, but works ! 
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Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 31 October 2010 at 10:40am
I dunno...those stickers look pretty darn cool to me! I think Brian could use more stickers on his car. Got any spares? |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 31 October 2010 at 4:11pm
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Oh, I love the Cup Car GT3, but also bare in mind that Porsche designed it for LeMans series III, in which fuel cells are not required (GT Class-II and Prototype I they are). Now, the extra fuel size is nice, but that still could've been done with a cheaper baffled fuel tank. And again, baffles are fantastic, but they only replicate smaller and smaller tanks. Say the baffled area is around a 1L out of a 50L tank, that allows you to carry 50L while keeping 1L being the effective "slosh" area, but there is still slosh. I'm not saying your engine is going to lose 100HP, and you're going to lean out enough to burn a hole in a piston, but you will pull in air, that's unavoidable. Now, I think the Fiero is better off than most in this regard, as there simply isn't room for fuel to move laterally too much, but if I rip it open and it looks not too bad, I'll just make one for myself and leave it online, and tell people they wont be seeing any amazing results. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 01 November 2010 at 12:48pm
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Porsche has made all kinds of Cup car variants with different race series' intentions and the latest comes with an FIA GT3 legal fuel cell. Earlier ones came with a basic (by Porsche standards) tank. However, the cool thing about modern cars is the ability for the car to monitor the AFR and make sure it isn't too rich or too lean and it'll adjust to compensate. In fact, it'll throw a CEL if the fuel pressure is too low. Anyhow, have you ever tried to empty a waterbed and watched as pockets of water get trapped as the bag collapses in unpredictable locations? You might be better off making a small surge tank. You can have pickups all around the bottom and air won't get pushed into your engine. You won't have any problems during operation unless you really run out of gas. I found this page for you to give you some ideas: http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 01 November 2010 at 1:01pm
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This seems a whole lot more effective than ripping apart fuel tanks and inserting Hefty garbage bags.
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Posted By: Bassman
Date Posted: 01 November 2010 at 1:48pm
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Ok Tristan, WHY????...Patrick said it best earlier...you have so much more to work on with your car and skillz...is this a school project?... ------------- Brian (Bassman) 86 GT Fastback 3.2L 2013 Mazda3 Sport GS SkyActive [IMG]http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u243/Bassman68/BassmanSignature.png"> |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 01 November 2010 at 2:25pm
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No he didn't! Brian, not that I mind being the center of controversy
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Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 01 November 2010 at 2:57pm
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You guys are cool. If the suspension was amazing, the fuel will still move around a lot, just not quite as much. However Brian bringing up the "skillz" component is very true. An average driver will suck so much in the turns that it wouldn't matter what suspension was on the car, the g-loading won't be that high to begin with. I know we all love to think we can drive well, but I've had the good fortune to be able to hire a professional driving coach, an ex-Porsche factory race car driver. A fella who won at the 12 Hours of Sebring and also raced at Daytona, LeMans, etc. He knows a thing or two about this stuff......and I really suck compared to him! He goes into a corner faster, carries more speed through the turn and in addition carries that speed onto the straight. So he'll run a higher risk of fuel starvation than any mere mortal. As it turned out when I set him loose at a great racetrack in Oregon with my car and R-comp tires with barely any fuel, there were no problems. Baffles work. At least in my car. |
Posted By: Bassman
Date Posted: 01 November 2010 at 6:22pm
Ok...one of us "Older Boyz"...lol ------------- Brian (Bassman) 86 GT Fastback 3.2L 2013 Mazda3 Sport GS SkyActive [IMG]http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u243/Bassman68/BassmanSignature.png"> |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 01 November 2010 at 10:49pm
Nah, I have the stuff for it, and I get bored easily, so I might as well have fun. No point putting it on the trucks, and the Mustang has a brand spanking new fuel tank, so there's no way I'm cutting that up. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Car-2-Lo
Date Posted: 02 November 2010 at 8:48am
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OPTION #3 
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 02 November 2010 at 10:51am
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OPTION 3 COSTS THE MONEYZ. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 02 November 2010 at 12:09pm
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I see four pistons. Must be for a Super-Duper duke. Right on, that'll get Tristan around the track!
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 02 November 2010 at 12:26pm
The other bank just isn't in that shot. The day I willingly own a four-banger is the day I give up on life. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 02 November 2010 at 1:28pm
I've driven a late 80's Lotus Turbo Esprit. It would make the passenger's feet lift off the floor under acceleration as you were thrown back into the seat. Lotus geared the transmission perfectly for that 4-banger. Very fun car. A friend owns a Toyota Sports Racer race car. MR2 4-banger drivetrain. That car has run 1:14's at Mission raceway. I've only been in the 1:16's with just over 3x the horsepower of that car. The number of cylinders don't really matter. It's what you do with them and the rest of the story that matters. |
Posted By: Car-2-Lo
Date Posted: 02 November 2010 at 1:56pm
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OPTION #4 
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 02 November 2010 at 2:44pm
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Could be worse...
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Posted By: armitage
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 9:02pm
Romeo, you can have my tank. PM me. |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 8:12am
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Never gonna happen. Gretchin and I are inseperable.
I'm sorry, I still stand by my statement: I do not like inline fours, I passionately dislike them. I don't like their sound, and I don't like how much room they take up (Taller than a V6, and just as long). And while I like many cars that come with I4's, such as the MR2, I'd still be dropping in a minimum of a V6 into them (Such as a Camry V6 into an MR2). Same goes for the Supra (I4 model was cool enough, but my favourite is the gaudy I6 generation 4). Don't forget, more cylinders means more fired cylinders per rotation. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |
Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 8:13am
Thank you! PM sent. ------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan. |