How difficult is it to change from 84-87 suspension to 88 suspension? Especially the front, if that happens to be the easier of the two.

I ask because there seems to be a huge difference between pricing for shocks for the 88's versus everything else, specifically with the Koni's. Any help would be appeciated.

Cheese wrote: Have you considered buying Koni reds for the front then getting them revalved to match the yellows? Seems like it'd be an awful lot of work to replace your entire front suspension just so you can use a particular kind of shock.

And as far as I can see Kevin, seems that they all have the same shock mounts, which is what I was looking at. According to Pennock's (Oh yeah, that just happened) 87's have beefed up componentry in the front, which people supposedly adore.

I have an 88 rear in my car.

The required stuff is:

88 cradle

88 v6 engine mount (front), or a pre 88 can be modified

coil over kit (smaller springs are required) and camber relocate kit (I bought this from ht moto.

Slightly reroute coolant lines due to trailing arms

Rebend rear brake lines (Carefully!)

You can't run really small wheels (14's) and clear the 88 rear brakes

Here's a link to some swap stuff

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/106223.html - http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/106223.html

Was it worth it? Hell yes...changer the car 100%.

I have a complete 88 front too. It looks like a much more daunting task. I may do it one day, but not right now. It involves a lot of cutting and welding and precision locating.

Chay

Hm... Damn, not what I was hoping to hear.

Well then, does anyone know if my desire to run Cheese's plan could be done as extensively as I'm hoping? I don't have work this week and being young and impatient, would like to know what my options (If any) are to bring in to work on Monday.

And thank you to Dawg, Cheese and Chay for taking the time to help me out so far!

That's what I've been looking at, actually (Great minds think alike, eh? ). From what I've seen in horribly low resolution pictures, only a simple adapter plate would be needed for the top mount, if they are in fact different (Seems to look the same, but I'm sure things are slightly different). The bottom is harder to judge (Every picture is so damn dark. lol) but hopefully that should still be feasible, especially with the level of fabrication equipment at work.

I'm glad someone else thinks that's a good idea though, because I was horribly nervous about the idea at first.

Thanks for the tips, I read the first part and almost gave up on the theory all together!

As for the strength of the metal, would 3/8 plate aluminum be strong enough? Or do you think I should be picking up titanium instead?

My hesitation with steel is three fold though:

Steel corrodes, leading to the possibility of pushing the shock up through the plate as it's intergrity falters.

Steel is heavy, and that weight is located as high up as it can go back there (As well as unsprung weight down low), and yet, steel offers no more strength than titanium.

Lastly, and perhaps oddly (For most people), I find steel incredibly hard to weld in comparison to aluminum and titanium. I have a habit of, uh, cleaving clean through it with the electrode. lol

Never-the-less, if you suggest steel, steel it shall be, and I'll just try and absolutely coat the thing in an epoxy primer to inhibit rust as much as is practical/possible.

I have finally got my answer from Chris of WestCoastFiero:

'88s are identical in the rear to '86 (Strut-wise), although it was actually at his behest I went away from the Koni yellows and back to the Koni reds. According to him, the yellows are valved to sync up optimally with a spring rate of 400 pounds per inch and up, whereas the reds find their sweet spot between 250 and 350. Sealing the deal was the fact the reds on the rear are adjusted identically to the yellows, contrary to Koni's description.

Oh and to answer your original question, doing an 88 rear swap is by far the best way to go.  The 88 Front really is not that great. Only real benefit to the 88 front are the better brakes, but a simple Grand Am swap makes that a moot point.  As for making 88 shock mounts on an 87 car, it is simply not possible without a complete redesign of the suspension.  The 88's have the shocks located inside the springs.  On Pre 88 cars, they have huge steel and rubber bump stops inside the springs.

The guys on the Fiero racing list, say the best bet is really a pre 88 car with an 88 cradle installed.

Capt Fiero wrote: Go with the poly, the derlin is great for the track, but is so hard, it kills ball joints, tie rods and your back.

As to your question Johhny Boy, I'm doing it bit by bit. So, for now I'll be doing rear Koni Reds and polyurethane at the rear. Once that's done, I'll take it back to BCIT and dial in the alignment angles I've figured out already. When I've got a bit more of a financial cushion, I'll be dropping Koni Reds in the front as well. Then, ultimately, I'd like to turn the existing spring set-up in to a coil-over set-up, with the intention of moving the lower spring mount up, which would allow for slightly wider tires at the back, while also allowing for a lowered set-up and stiffened spring rate.

Car-2-Lo wrote: Sorry for all the questions, the reason I'll be doing the suspension too and see what is the best way to go without to much $$$$. So you're going Koni Reds @$400 pair ? Why not KYB and paint them red @$180 pair ?

Koni's arn't the cheapest - in fact of all brands, they're the most expensive by far, at $400 for the rear axle and $300 for the front. They're also the least comfortable, with the Reds already being stiffer than the KYB's half-way through the stiffness setting, and the Yellows being stiffer at their softest setting. The advantage of the Koni's is the ability to have a race set-up, without having to leave it bone-jarringly stiff for daily driving.

According to my trials on the simulator, adjusting the stiffness of the shocks up allowed me to literally half my camber angles (From -1.7 degrees rear to -0.8 degrees, don't remember the front settings off-hand, but they were also one half when stiffened), which would not only reduce tire wear, but keeps the tires flatter at launch, helping to keep more of the power down.

I love the way the Monroe Sensa-Tracs feel in combination with the cut springs on my '84. Quite stiff. The stance is nice and low, and yet it doesn't bottom out.

Ya ya I'm cheap, but in this case the end result is still more than satisfactory.

Cheese wrote: I went from one event placing http://www.ubcscc.com/events/2011/jan9/T.TXT - 51st out of 53 to being http://www.ubcscc.com/events/2011/jan23/T.TXT - 38th out of 55 at the next event.

Looks like this season will be more of a challenge for my '84 duke and I.

Keep on your toes, young fella!

Cheese wrote: So, does this talk of changing shocks and such mean we might see a few more Fieros consistently doing autox this summer? I did a lot of the same stuff before autoxing my car and while I'm sure it made a difference, the only change I can truthfully say helped my car to a noticeable degree was to buy dedicated tires specifically made with autox in mind. I wasn't really sure what to expect, but so far I'm amazed at what a difference it's has made, I went from one event placing http://www.ubcscc.com/events/2011/jan9/T.TXT - 51st out of 53 to being http://www.ubcscc.com/events/2011/jan23/T.TXT - 38th out of 55 at the next event. Now, I'm not sure the change would have been so positive if I still had worn out rubber bushings, nearly dead shocks, etc., as those things probably would have become more evident, but if you want a good handling car I'm convinced that stickier tires are the single greatest change you can make. I was actually considering spending the money for some Koni shocks before I bought them but now I'm pretty content with what I have, and it's made me more competitive than I would have thought possible.

I wouldn't mind tires, but first things first is the rear shocks/overall alignment. The car is completely unsafe to drive right now, I don't even take it on the highways now as it pulls so bad I've almost lost it multiple times. Later on, if the budget allows, I'll pick up some General Tire UHP Exclaims from Canadian Tire. Tires are nice, but not permanent. I'd rather keep the money in reserve to fix things as they break, or finish off the second 2.8L.

Romeo wrote: Everyone who posted saying they're buying/bought shocks is already in autocross, save for Ken!

Romeo wrote: I wouldn't mind tires, but first things first is the rear shocks/overall alignment. The car is completely unsafe to drive right now, I don't even take it on the highways now as it pulls so bad I've almost lost it multiple times. Later on, if the budget allows, I'll pick up some General Tire UHP Exclaims from Canadian Tire. Tires are nice, but not permanent. I'd rather keep the money in reserve to fix things as they break, or finish off the second 2.8L.

Yep, your shocks and alignment are definitely more critical for you. Nice tires are a bit of a luxury I suppose (if you're just autoxing rather casually), but after trying it, I'd gladly buy a new set of tires every season or two. Until you get some nicer tires, all I can say is, don't be surprised if you get beaten by a duke!

Don't get Patrick's hopes up.

I have (Sort've) decent UHP's on now. I just can't justify spending a ton on soft-compound, short-life tires over other things. Between food, sports, insurence, gas and helping out with the house reno/rent, I barely have any money left over for dates and more importantly, car parts. To spend it on something I can optimistically expect a couple years out of isn't viable for me right now. Besides, inevitably fixing up the rear is going to highlight how pathetic the front probably is, so I'm sure that'll be next up. Then the lighter engine (Make the tires and engine work less), then tires.

Stock springs for now. I lack the finances (And lately, the patience) for anything beyond just shocks and bushings, which is more for safety (And convenience in the case of bushings) than performance. Switching to high performance now just allows me to install the rest of what I want later, without having to re-buy shocks.

As for the shocks, it depends on what you're looking for. If you just want comfort for a good price, stick with the KYB's. If you want performance for cheap, get the KYB's and resleeve them with a smaller orifice/valve. If you want both, it isn't cheap, but then I'd go with the Koni reds. Dial them up around 3/4 when you're autocrossing, dial them all the way back for daily-driving. You could hypothetically go with the yellows (If you have an '88 suspension set-up) but those range from stiff to stiffer, and would probably negatively impact comfort during daily driving.

Romeo wrote: Stock springs for now. I like the finances (And lately, the patience) for anything beyond just shocks and bushings...

You might want to go back and edit your post, bud. What you ended up with is about the exact opposite of what you meant.

LOL. Well, technically I do like both those things. Although at the moment, I lack them.

Yeah, I'll go fix that now.

Well, a bit of an update/one more question. The update is that I picked up a set of Nexen N9000's from Ryan (Owns the very attractive Red Fiero that rides on 19" six spoke rims), so I have fresh rubber, and have a date set to get my Gretchin aligned as well - Tuesday.

Before I head in though, I had touched on this before, and Colby had helped give me an answer, but be damned if I could find his post again: What is the maximum amount of caster one can run on a Fiero? In a perfect world, a straight 7 degrees would allow me to dial back half the camber on the front, while still providing enough dynamic camber in the corners to keep the fronts almost flat (Ever so slightly negative, about 0.03-0.05 degrees). Obviously, if running that much is beyond the stock suspension capabilities, I will have to dial in a touch more negative camber up front as well.

As a side note, if you read that and thought "What a fantastic idea for my daily driver, I need more caster", perish the thought. On a vehicle without power steering, caster makes the wheel harder and harder to turn, an effect that only gets amplified with speed.

Oh, I'm not worried about road feel or comfort (At all. Seriously.)

My sole concern is the mechanical limitation of how much caster can be forced before it's simply not possible to dial any more in. Hopefully it ain't 5, or I'll have to tweak in -0.5 more camber! It'd be excessive on wear...