454 Fuel Problem
Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Technical Topics Forum
Forum Name: Technical Questions and Discussions
Forum Description: Got a technical question about your fiero? ask it here.
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2651
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 10:59pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 454 Fuel Problem
Posted By: Romeo
Subject: 454 Fuel Problem
Date Posted: 24 August 2011 at 3:47pm
Alright, I figured since you guys nailed the first problem I had with the 454, I'd head to you for my new issue. Notably, the distinct lack of fuel from the injectors.
Now, to rule out the things I know it isn't: Fuel pump, injectors, connectors to the injectors. I have verified that there is fuel flow to each injector, and that shorting the injectors causes them to shoot fuel out as normal. The connectors leading to them are all at 0.1 Ohms resistance, which is well within a usable range. So it's something electrical leading up to the injectors. I've checked the wiring for about the two feet leading up to them, but after that, it goes in to the wire loom that heads to the PCM.
Basically, long story short, I don't want to grab a whole other computer from Pick-A-Part only to find that isn't the issue at all. Given that the 454 uses almost the exact same system as the Duke does, any ideas on why the PCM isn't signalling the injectors to fire? I'd really appreciate any advice on the matter, thanks!
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Replies:
Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 24 August 2011 at 4:57pm
So - since you didn't mention what year n' stuff other than it's a BBC... I'm going to pretend it's a '93 K3500.
You have constant power (key on) at the red and white wires, right?
Hook up a test light, or a scope (yeah right) to the red, and to the dark blue OR the dark green and crank it. Light should blink. Wanna get fancy, hook up two lights, and they should alternately blink.
Will it run on ether/trickled gas?
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 24 August 2011 at 5:19pm
Haven't tried dripping gas in to the intake, will do that next. What do you mean by red and white wires though? My power wires are blue and brown, respectively. They're powered.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 24 August 2011 at 8:10pm
Well like I said - I just picked '93 K3500 randomly (and looked up schematics accordingly). What do YOU have?!
But anyhow, if you know which pair are powered, just run with the concept. You're just testing to see if the ECM is grounding them at the right time. Don't guess though. Test 'em.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 24 August 2011 at 10:56pm
K2500, I'm sure it's the same (motor-wise). Anyways, I don't have a voltage meter capable of checking the brief "on-time" of the circuit, but that would be irrelevent... When I forced 12V through the wiring leading up to the connector, injectors fire just fine.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 25 August 2011 at 5:47am
That's great - but I didn't say to use a meter. Test light. Also didnt say to try and force them to fire! You're looking for ground pulses from the ECM.
Hope you pay more attention in class grasshopper!
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 25 August 2011 at 12:01pm
Don't have a test light, so that'll be an issue. As for looking for the ECM to ground them out, I know that it isn't. Mechanically, the fuel system is good, and electrically, it's sound. So I know it's the ECM not doing them, I'm just trying to figure out why.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 25 August 2011 at 2:51pm
AlRIGHT.
Having taken the truck from it's original lack of fuel delivery (No fuel) to massive over-fueling (Too much fuel) to lean misfiring (Not enough fuel) I've finally got the issue figured down to one part, more or less.
Because I realized the fuse got wiped when I shorted the injectors through the battery, I had an added issue to contend with there. Replace the fuse for the injectors and now the driver's side injector works, while the passenger's does not. Here, however, is where common sense simply goes out the god damn window.
Because both injectors are treated effectively as an alternating pair, I can now rule out other sensors from the equation (Distributor signal, O2, Oil Pressure Sensor) as those faults would cause both to not work. Looking at the power delivery, I know that the driver's side was working, so to check if it was either power or ground, I decided to "bridge" the two power sides at one point, and then the grounds after that. Now, before you go hollering "But Tristan, you sex god, two injectors takes twice the power!" know that at idle, the injectors are "off" more than they're on, and they alternate back and forth. As far as the system is concerned, it isn't running two injectors at the same pace, it's running one injector "more often". Bridge the power sides, and the driver's injector simply cuts out, just like the passenger's side (Removing that bridge causes it to work again). Alright, I thought, a little odd, but I will continue to ground. Now, this is where things would be "different" for the electrical system. In this circumstance, we're assuming power is being supplied to each injector, who are then sharing the ground signal. This does affect amperage and signal, so it's not a direct comparison to "working right". However, once again, bridging the grounds simply wipes out the driver's side injector as well (Without blowing the fuse, or destroying the computer, as the injector will work as soon as the ground is removed).
So, basically I'm at a point now where I have as many variables taken out of the equation as I can, but the remaining solutions no longer make sense... Any more help Doc, or anyone?
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 25 August 2011 at 5:39pm
Have you tried simply flipping the connectors around (left for right) and seeing if the problem follows the connector, or the injector? TBI injectors clog and/or die fairly easily. They (TBI units) are also prone to regulator failure. It's built into the 'head' of the unit. Done a number of them.
As for no test light... you mean to tell me you don't have a couple of spare fiero corner markers/dash light bulbs? The wires unfold nicely. Poof. Test light(s).
As for bridging the power leads - nothing should happen. They both go back to the same point on the fuse panel anyhow. Bridging the ecm's side... well.... not a great idea, but it shouldn't burn out the quad driver if you don't do it for long. Not a good plan though.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 25 August 2011 at 7:20pm
Up until two minutes ago I'd have said your suggestion of swapping the connectors would've been pointless. After all, I knew when I shorted them, both injectors would fire no problem.
Switched the connectors and realized I owe you a sincere apology.
For whatever reason, even after switching the connectors, the driver's side is still the only one firing, so I'll have to pull the passenger's side and replace it. Thanks Doc!
As for bridging the power side, I know they both come from the same fuse, but I was wondering if perhaps one side's power supply wasn't making sufficient amperage to open the solenoid (Injector) up, so I was wondering if bridging it would highlight any power-side issues for the one injector. And agreed, bridging the ECM was a dicey move to be sure, but like you said, it's survivable if done for a short enough time frame.
Lastly, no, no spares or extra bulbs/marker lights of any kind.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 26 August 2011 at 9:21am
Romeo wrote:
Any more help Doc, or anyone? |
Sorry bud, you lost me after the "sex god" reference.
Tristan, please read (and respond to) your emails!
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 26 August 2011 at 6:14pm
OY, DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, OLD MAN. lol
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 2:40pm
Well, after several screw-ups and delays with Lordco, I finally ended up going to Burnaby Auto for my injectors, and today I got the truck running. Only problem being, it's barely idling, and throwing black out the tail pipes (Indicating MASS over-fueling). My only question is this: Is this an issue I should try and correct somehow? Or is it just the result of the fuel map having been enriched when the fuel system was failing, and I should just let it work itself out? Any help would be appreciated, thanks!
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 2:55pm
No way short or long term trims are going to fix THAT much
overfueling (black smoke).
You might have a broken or rusted out spring in the FPR (common
problem btw).
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 3:23pm
The regulator is only supposed to come in to play during WOT (In terms of fuel mixture), is it not? A high regulator pressure will only mean the ECU has to pull back more fuel, doesn't it?
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 3:56pm
It is not.
It modulates the pressure at all times to maintain a constant pressure at the injector. It would make writing the fuel tables insanely difficult if the pressure kept changing.
The ECU can only vary the mixture by a small amount (can't remember the percentage) from it's base #.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 3:56pm
Well Doc, it ain't the regulator. I threw on the 305's regulator in to the thing, and there was absolutely zero change (Not to mention the 454's regulator moves freely). I will try popping off the return line though, and just running a fitting in to a bucket. Maybe the return has some sort of blockage.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 4:53pm
Well, I'm at my wits end. I had almost thought perhaps a couple of plugs weren't firing (Hence the rich exhaust, and lopey idle). However, when hit with some gas, the exhaust clears up, and it revs insanely quick... UGH. Last GM truck I buy, I swear to god...
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 5:20pm
Sorry for the back-to-back-to-back post, but I took it out for a few laps around the block, and I've discovered a few things:
- It shifts hard as hell at the moment, no idea why, wasn't doing it before.
- If you go full throttle, it completely cuts out (Or sometimes backfires). If you ease on to the throttle however, it will go up and stay at full-throttle just fine.
- Part-throttle seems to have a little bit of both idle and full-throttle characteristics. Snapping on to half throttle will stall, but unlike full-throttle, it's still fairly lopey at partial throttle.
Help?
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:38pm
Not placing any bets or guarantee's, but....
From what you've just described, it sounds like your MAP sensor is not hooked up, not hooked up right, not working, not wired, not... well, you get the idea.
Wow - I'm really surprised someone hasn't jumped in here yet with a solution via a semi relevant link to a long dead thread on Pennocks.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 6:52pm
Actually, tied in with what you suggested, it has a low TPS Sensor code as well. So if the MAP is conversely being read "high" compared to the TPS, that could be it. Will try that tomorrow. Finally having given up tonight...
I'm frustrated as hell. Don't want to look at that stupid thing anymore.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 7:36pm
Do you not have an OBD-1 scan tool?
If you have access to one - Hook it up, and see what the MAP voltage is. With the engine off, you should see almost 5 volts (anything like 4.3 or more is fine). If you had high vacuum (~19-21 inches) while it was running, you'd see about 1.4 volts.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 7:53pm
I have a scan-tool, but I only get PIDs on OBD-II vehicles with it, OBD-I is just codes (It's a dumb design).
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 8:25pm
Not sure who's got it, but the Pro-Link 9000 that the club has does what I'm talking about. Pretty sure the module covers your year (mine does).
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 9:39pm
Alrighty, will have to talk to David next weekend then. Thanks for the advice!
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 12:20am
Tristan, I have it on good authority that a shiny new gas cap will restore your truck as well as brighten your smile.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 3:12pm
Gas cap seems relatively minor now, seeing as how I spent this morning saving my K&N from a small engine fire, burning my hand in the process.
Ok, now I'm fairly certain it is a fuel issue.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 6:06pm
Romeo wrote:
...I spent this morning saving my K&N from a small engine fire, burning my hand in the process. |
All of us who own Fieros (them things catch fire, you know) should always have a fire extingusher near by.
How's your hand? Shall we now refer to you as "Lefty"?
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 8:33am
It's not burned that bad, just blistered. And I did have a fire extinguisher on hand, but because the fire was inside the throttle body - which was inside the K&N - I ditched the extinguisher to save the air filter. Didn't think of the fact I still had fuel on my right hand from working on it earlier. lol
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: CFoss
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 2:11pm
I sent the club a winaldl cable which should work for your application, only it has a 10k resistor so it will enter aldl mode when you connect it.
Choose 16144288 for the ecm...i know it's not right, you probably have a '7747, but it will work for checking the sensors.
If you want to build your own cable, the one or 2 transistor method will work (I've only used the 2 T cable, so I'd suggest building it):
Ignore the lotus end, just find +12, gnd from anywhere (Cig lighter for temp, I wired mine in solid on my boat which uses a '161 1992 TBI), then find the data out and connect it.
Chay
------------- 86 SE 3.4
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 2:39pm
I know my scan-tool uses "Printer" connectors (About the best way I can describe them. They're the same size and pin-count as old-school dot matrix printer connectors were) to go from the tool itself to the adaptor. I wonder if I downloaded WinALDL and found a "Printer-to-USB" adapter if I'd even have to build the cord...
Oh well, just picked up the new throttle body ($500 later...) so I'll head out and pop that on first, then I'll see if I need to keep scanning.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 20 September 2011 at 2:51pm
Romeo wrote:
Oh well, just picked up the new throttle body ($500 later...) |
...
Hope that solves the problem!
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 22 September 2011 at 3:51pm
If it doesn't, next step is a carb, and a very clever job disguising it from ICBC.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 22 September 2011 at 10:19pm
I am pretty sure i have the transistors and such if you want to build
the cable..
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 23 September 2011 at 3:15pm
I might, Gary. Just give me a little bit. My hand has healed up enough where I don't think it'd hurt to try and install the new TBI, so I'll head out and do that today and tomorrow (As well as to check what else was damaged). If it still struggles with fuel modulation, I will send you a message.
Thanks a lot for the offer!
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 5:30pm
Update: It's working.
Although I must admit, every now and then it has trouble idling (Although usually it runs flawlessly). I think it may be a vacuum leak, as, on top of those conditions, the transmission usually shifts late and hard (Which would imply the modulator isn't seeing enough vacuum).
(Happy now, Patrick?)
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Posted By: Dr.Fiero
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 5:51pm
Romeo wrote:
the transmission usually shifts late and hard (Which would imply the modulator isn't seeing enough vacuum). |
Is it a 700R4 tranny? If so - no vac' mod. Your throttle valve cable is not set right. It'll probably be one or two 'clicks' too tight (tranny thinks you're stepping on it harder than you are).
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Posted By: Romeo
Date Posted: 05 October 2011 at 7:59pm
Hm, according to the interwebz, I have a 4L80-E. And I was fairly sure there was a vacuum leak somewhere, just thought it made sense for that condition to solve both symptoms.
------------- Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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