Track Tires / Wheels Questions
Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Events Section
Forum Name: Performance Driving
Forum Description: Autocross, Road and Drag Racing discussions
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3053
Printed Date: 22 November 2024 at 8:57am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Track Tires / Wheels Questions
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Subject: Track Tires / Wheels Questions
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 8:34pm
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OK so the long and short of it. For those that don't know I gave up on having the time / energy to finish my 4.9 Fiero. There were too many things I wanted to do and upgrade that I just didn't have the time. So I sent the car off to FOY Racing. They don't have the car yet, but they do have the motor and are building it to spec, and I just found out they want to send my car to the dyno to do before and after tests. (at their expense, to show the improvement of their parts on a 4.9) That being said, I am really thinking about giving the whole Autocross thing another go. However my current tires on the V8 are rather old and hard, so I'll need to get new tires and I was thinking about getting 2 sets, one for Performance Street driving and one for Track Only use. Which would mean I would also need to decide on new wheels as well. I am on the fence, spend $2000 on an entire package of 8 tires and 4 rims, or just buy one set of decent all around performance tires. I have heard many of you talk about R888's. How long would those last on a street driven setup? What I need are tires that will last at least a year if I go with dual purpose or if I get 2 sets I would want 2 seasons out of Autocross and Street tires that would last about 2 years of normal driving. I'll admit the rears will last about 1/2 as long as fronts. When I did venture out onto the Autocross aside from my lack of good judgment, my biggest issue was getting the front end to bite. It just wanted to push. So I am thinking 245's all the way around. Then having at minimum of a 7/8ths rear bar with heim joints instead of end links. If I go with dedicated track tires/wheels I will go with 14" for the track and stay with 16's for daily use. The 14's from what I have heard have always been the preferred size for the track with the exception of the fact they are narrow and hard to go more than 225 on, they seem to be great. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Replies:
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 9:25pm
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You may wish to re-evaluate 14" track tire sizes when you investigate what's available. And if the truth be known, unless a Fiero is really slammed down, the gaps between 14" (even 15") low profile tires and the fenders are HUGE. Brian and Gary are familiar with the R888's, and Colby is probably the one who's done the most research lately, but I'll chip in with the little that I know. On the basis of what I learned from Colby, I went with Kumho Ecsta XS tires. I got a great deal through a vendor on eBay and paid $426 (included shipping to Sumas) for a set of four 225/50/16 tires. I then mounted them on a brand new set of 5-spoke 16x7 CSA alloy wheels (made in Australia) that I stole for $200 from a local GM dealer that was clearing out "old" stock. My plan is to keep these wheels/tires on for autocross season (Apr-Oct), and then put my other wheels/tires on for the ugly months. After a couple of autocrosses on these tires, I can say that there's no comparison between these and regular "street" tires, although technically, these are actually street tires. Prior to me buying my own decent tires for the track (as I had been using my regular street tires since I began autocrossing two summers ago), Brian was kind enough to let me try his mounted R888's for a couple of autocrosses this year. They may have been a bit stickier in the corners than the Kumhos I ended up buying, but honestly, I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference in handling with my '84. It might be more obvious with a faster car.
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Capt Fiero wrote:
Posted By: Colby
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 11:18pm
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Yeah, I wouldn't do 14" unless you want to save money. There are hardly any performance tires available for 14" rims, you'd be stuck with 195/60R14 tires unless you're going to a track-only tire. Since it's not your daily driver, and since you're still not sure about autocross, I'd recommend sticking to just one set of true high performance street tires. Look for something with about 140-200 treadwear. You will love what they do to the car, both at the track and on the street, it's amazing how much difference it can make. But do shop around a bit online and see for yourself what's available. Unfortunately the selection for 14-16" tires in this category is a bit limited. In the end, the difference between 195 and 225 isn't as big as you might think. Buying the right tires for what you want to do will make a much bigger difference. Switching all 4 corners from 225 to 245 won't correct your understeer issues. It'll give both ends of the car more grip, so yes it won't understeer as soon, but it will still understeer just the same. You're better off playing with the suspension a bit to correct this. I've done 2 summers on my 200 treadwear Falken RT-615K's, and could probably do another. That includes about 20 autocrosses, which is where most of the wear has come from. ------------- 88 Formula 5 speed |
Posted By: CFoss
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 5:47pm
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Hey. I'm in the same boat with my car. The exsta are rated very highly, but i doubt they would last on the street. For long anyway. I can't afford 2 set of wheels etc. Plus, I don't really want to go out and learn the car on one set of tires, then drive on the street with a different feel and capability. It seems like it would be easy to overdrive after using the autox tires. Anyway, I'm looking at these for dual duty: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireModel=Direzza+Sp ort+Z1+Star+Spec&tireMake=Dunlop Dunlop star spec. They are a street tire, but fairly high performance. Chay ------------- 86 SE 3.4 |
Posted By: Colby
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 7:53pm
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Most normal street tires give you lots of warning as you get near their limits, so you don't need to worry too much about overdriving the car after getting used to the extra grip. My next set of tires are probably to be the Star Specs as well. That or, the Kumho XS like Patrick has. ------------- 88 Formula 5 speed |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 8:08pm
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If anyone drives on the street like they do on the track (unless they're overly timid on the track), they'd lose their license pretty quick anyway.
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So worrying about "overdriving" on street tires (on the street) after autocrossing is kind of a moot point IMO.Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 8:40pm
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Why? How much longer wearing do you think the Dunlops would actually be? Look at the http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=48 - treadware ratings for the three tires (all 225/50/16) listed below. The lower the number the softer the tire. And look at the prices, all from Tire Rack. Don't forget shipping costs ($100?) and taxes. I think the Kumho tires are possibly the best overall value when factoring in performance, price and treadware (especially at the price I got them at - $426, no added shipping costs, $51 tax at the border.) $532 - http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+XS&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=25WR6EXS&tab=Specs - Kumho Ecsta XS - 180 treadware $640 - http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Direzza+Sport+Z1+Star+Spec&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=25VR6Z1SS&tab=Sizes - Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec -200 treadware $808 - http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Toyo&tireModel=Proxes+R888&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=25WR6R888&tab=Sizes - Toyo Proxes R888 - 100 treadware In case anyone is interested in possibly buying the Kumho tires, http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-NEW-KUMHO-Ecsta-XS-Extream-Performance-Street-AutocrossTires-225-50-ZR-16-/300756844909?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item460681416d - Here is a current listing ($449) from the place I bought mine from.
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Posted By: CFoss
Date Posted: 02 October 2012 at 9:13pm
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Ok, I doubt any of those tires would last long on the street. They would be fun though! The info I was reading was from a site which classed the star specs as a street tire, not a 'real' autocross tire like the hoosiers. I'm interested in learning more about the different tires, sometimes the numbers don't add up to the reality. On the island there are lots of oportunities in the middle of nowhere to open it up a bit (Unlike hwy 1). With the turbo it's easy to get it sideways (at least with the tires I have on right now). I can't see learning your car with one setup and then changing it to drive home as a good thing. You'd just be naturally programmed to believe it had the same capability, and you could be dead wrong. Anyway, do what you like, and so will I. $449 is really resonable for a set of sticky tires for sure. Chay ------------- 86 SE 3.4 |
Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 02 October 2012 at 9:40pm
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So I have made my decision, I am going to go with a good midrange Sticky street tire, 225/50/16's on the front and 245/50/16s on the rear. As to driving on the street, Chay, I am with you, there is a section between Aldergrove and Langley that is just made for opening it up, and a few intersections around town that are just too perfect not to make a hard shift into 2nd and let the back end cut loose and put the car sideways. After a lot of sincere thought, it is a street car and if I can't drive it from the street to the track and back to the street without a ton of changes then its not really a street car. Kinda like the guys that put Nitrous in their car to pull a fast time at the track then leave the track and remove the bottle so they don't get into trouble. Its why they call it a cheater kit. Come to think of it, Using Track Tires on a Street Car is kinda like Nitrous on daily use, they both wear out really fast and are really expensive to refill the bottle / replace the tires. LOL. I was very tempted though to get some race tires though, just so I could really see what the car will do with 100% of the power to the ground. Granted knowing my luck it would result in Transmission #7 scattered all over the ground. As for tire choice, it will end up being Patrick's suggestion of the Kumho's that I'll go with. ------------- Capt Fiero 88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
Posted By: Colby
Date Posted: 02 October 2012 at 10:09pm
Yeah, the two main autocross tires are the Kumho v710 and the Hoosiers. I wouldn't drive those on the street. With all of the other tires we've talked about, I'd be quite comfortable having them on my car full time from June to the beginning of September without worrying a whole lot about wearing them down quickly. Although I don't drive much more than 15km at a time. Anything with a treadwear rating over 140 is considered a "street" tire to the autox crowd. One of the main reasons to do these events is so you can learn the limits of your car, and to learn how to predict when you'll start to lose it. With practice, you should find that you don't accidentally overdrive the car any more, with any tire, because you know exactly what causes it, how the car reacts, and how to correct or it or prevent it from happening. Keep in mind that the transition to less sticky tires isn't any worse than the dry to wet transition, you just have to be aware of the reduced grip. During one autocross, I had a less experienced co-driver driving my car. During the course walk, I mentioned to him a point in the course where if he lifted off the throttle, he would spin the car. Sure enough, about 4 runs in, he got a bit nervous and lifted off the throttle. The car spun. I knew what my car would do in those conditions even before actually driving the course, and I only knew that from my past experience. It's true that the stickier tires can hide mask these issues from you somewhat, but since you're in a controlled environment, trying to drive the car as quickly as possible, you'll get exposed to them regardless of how sticky your tires are. That's the important thing. ------------- 88 Formula 5 speed |
Posted By: Colby
Date Posted: 02 October 2012 at 10:19pm
What Kumhos did you get exactly? The XS doesn't come in a 245/50R16 size. I'll be replacing my current tires next season, so if it turns out that they're stickier than what you've bought, I'll gladly let you try them out for a few autocrosses. ------------- 88 Formula 5 speed |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 02 October 2012 at 11:43pm
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It's a "good thing" in regards to saving the softer tires for the track, but it's also more hassle than I'm prepared to put up with.
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Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 06 February 2014 at 11:04pm
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I dragged this old thread to the top as I was poking around eBay and noticed that the tire dealer I bought my autocross tires from is now selling a few complete sets of them (a set of four 225/50/16 tires) for only $368... which includes shipping!!! That is a fantastic price. Click http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOUR-NEW-KUMHO-Ecsta-XS-Extreme-Performance-Street-Autocross-Tires-225-50-ZR-16-/291010414812?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Tires&hash=item43c19288dc#ht_2963wt_1126 - HERE to see the eBay listing. If anyone needs autocross tires and has 16" rims, snap these up. You will not be disappointed. Have them shipped to one of the border drop sites, such as http://myshiphappens.com/ - Ship Happens or http://247parcel.com/ - 24/7 Parcel . Cost me $10 when I did this, plus 12% taxes at the border. |
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 09 February 2014 at 3:53pm
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I stumbled across a YouTube video that really shows how hard tires have to work when being pushed a bit. The following video was shot on a camera mounted under the back of an '88 Fiero facing towards the front. The driver's side rear tire is to the left in the foreground. Watch how much the sidewalls are flexing on the tire. Unbelieveable! Click ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJndkuoU3k8 - Dixie Motor Speedway Auto-X (1988 Pontiac Fiero GT) Now you can see some of the need for decent tires!
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Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 10 February 2014 at 7:43pm
Wow. ...and some more cameras! 
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