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Porsche Club AutoX - Saturday, Aug 30th

Printed From: West Coast Fieros
Category: Events Section
Forum Name: Performance Driving
Forum Description: Autocross, Road and Drag Racing discussions
URL: http://www.westcoastfieros.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3509
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 8:23am
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Topic: Porsche Club AutoX - Saturday, Aug 30th
Posted By: Patrick
Subject: Porsche Club AutoX - Saturday, Aug 30th
Date Posted: 16 August 2014 at 4:41pm

It may seem a little soon to be posting this, but the early registration discount expires after August 18th. So save a few bucks and register before this upcoming Tuesday (the 19th).

PORSCHE CLUB CANADA WEST REGION


Saturday August 30th 2014

Double Pad Autocross - signup closes August 29th at 6:00pm.

First timers and spectators are welcome to attend

If you are co-driving, please indicate (in the 'notes' field) which car you will be driving and who your co-driver is!

EVERYONE MUST READ THE FOLLOWING:

- All drivers and spectators must sign the PCA liability waiver in order to enter the venue. No exceptions.

- All "drivers" under 18 years of age must be accompanied by a parent.

- Pre-registration via Karelo is mandatory. There will be absolutely no refunds for this event. Credit towards a future event may be given only in the event of medical or family emergencies, and only if notice is given within 24hours, at the discretion of the event chairperson.

- Pre-registration on Karelo is the only way to sign up for this event. Those showing up with cash on the morning of the event will be turned away.

- For current Porsche Club members: Cost is $50+GST per driver. ($52.50)

- For all non-PCA members: Cost is $60+GST per driver. ($63.00)

- Late Registration AFTER August18th will be $65+GST for ALL drivers ($68.25)

Click to register http://www.karelo.com/register.php?BID=374&BT=10&Ev=14506 - HERE .

Come out and watch the Porsches desperately try and stay ahead of the Fieros... or better yet, come on out and participate.




Replies:
Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 17 August 2014 at 11:16pm

I'm registered. No need to put it off.

There's a slight chance that BCCC may do an extra autocross in the fall, but if not, this will the last opportunity for most of us to autocross this year. The summer goes by fast!

 



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 19 August 2014 at 7:23pm
ok. I am registered!

lets hope it is dry!


Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 19 August 2014 at 8:36pm
I'll be at a car show - but will be thinking of you guys!


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 19 August 2014 at 11:54pm

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

lets hope it is dry!

So far this summer, you and the 914/6 have spanked me every time we've raced on a dry track. Unless BCCC puts on a fall event, this will probably be my last opportunity this year to try and catch you. Bring it on!  

 



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 21 August 2014 at 9:13pm
Gonna miss you Al!

Al, your gonna miss watching me mop the floor with Patrick

anyone reading this should pop out and watch for a bit. we will do our best to be good hosts (we may be out working the course), but if we are driving, we can likely give you a ride around the cones.



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 21 August 2014 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

Gonna miss you Al! Al, your gonna miss
watching me mop the floor with Patrick

I'll miss you too, Bro! The car show is in our hood and I
can bring Tara to it for potential car shopping. Thinking
of swapping her car for something quite different.

I'll try to drop by in the afternoon to watch the carnage.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 21 August 2014 at 10:42pm

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

Al, your gonna miss watching me mop the floor with Patrick

Oh yeah ??!!!

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

'll try to drop by in the afternoon to watch the carnage.

The fur will be flying!  Well, hopefully our cars will be.

So Brian, are you definitely a no go, or is there still a chance you'll be coming out?

 



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 22 August 2014 at 9:26pm
oh ya!





Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 23 August 2014 at 1:06am

And just when you least suspect it...

 



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 23 August 2014 at 10:49am
Combat Kitty!

Gary, I'll see about bringing you a bulletproof vest.


Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 23 August 2014 at 9:38pm
ya.. but that leads to no place good...






Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 24 August 2014 at 7:57pm


Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 24 August 2014 at 9:48pm


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 29 August 2014 at 10:16am

Gary and I will be looking out the window a lot today.

It will not rain... it will not rain... it will not rain...

 



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 29 August 2014 at 3:17pm
consider trading those "driving sneakers" for gumboots...

let's see what the day brings!


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 29 August 2014 at 6:09pm

It rained pretty hard for about five minutes while I was on the freeway around 3 PM. Maybe that'll be it for the weekend. (Fingers crossed.)

Just on my way out to Pitt Meadows now to help Rich set up the course. I'm going to try and make if Fiero-friendly.

 



Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 29 August 2014 at 9:48pm

Gary, make sure your gas tank is full... we're going to get a LOT of runs! I suppose because of the long weekend, only 25 people have signed up.

It's going to be a pretty fast course. I just hope we're not dodging puddles!



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 29 August 2014 at 10:41pm
I have packed extra socks am will make the most of the day.

Looking forward to it!


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 7:04am

Actually looks pretty nice out there right now.  

But I'll bring the gumboots along... just in case!

 



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 6:57pm
ok. all rested from a great day. no rain till the end and a record 15 runs! yes folks 15! did I mention 15 runs? wow!

I am going to review some video but here are some pictures to start...







Posted By: Jim85GT
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 7:28pm
Great course times, especially for the WRX. Looks like the
Formula was right up there with the top cars to boot.
Only thing I noticed in the first picture was, the Silver
Corvette owner was cooling down his engine with the hood
up. I guess you were cooling down your radiator?


Posted By: Jim85GT
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 7:29pm
Hope to see your Video soon.
Jim


Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 8:15pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0pmyLk--34&list=UUFs8mR0LUlnko9LsVz5D5TQ - Here is a link to a run with a couple of spins
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be63LhEGH8g&list=UUFs8mR0LUlnko9LsVz5D5TQ&index=2 - here is our autocross host, taking the car thru the paces

I have plenty of my own video and I placed the camera all over the car but the wind noise is horrible and some is rather shaky... Patrick, perhaps you can stitch me together a good one.

these 2 should give you a good idea of the day


Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 11:44pm
Are you still dizzy, Gary?

Cool vids. Thanks for posting them.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 12:42am

I just got home after visiting friends in Maple Ridge after autocross. I'm too bagged right now to post much, but it was a good day. LOTS of seat time!

Gary had a great day behind the wheel.  There is no way I beat him. (The timing sheet is wrong, I didn't get a 57.482 run.) Gary spanked me by three full seconds. You could almost say he... annihilated me!

I'll review my videos in the morning. My times were okay, but I killed more cones than usual. It's going to be ulgy.



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 9:38am
I was just looking at the times (too tired to look at
numbers last night) and Gary, you did fantastic! You kicked
Bill's butt (997 GT3).

Tough course for your car too due to the gearing and Rich's
video shows that aspect a lot.

My hat is off to you, Bro! You did a great job.   


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 12:10pm

Originally posted by Jim85GT Jim85GT wrote:

Only thing I noticed in the first picture was, the Silver Corvette owner was cooling down his engine with the hood up. I guess you were cooling down your radiator?

Jim, that picture was taken before any racing occurred. The hoods were raised for tech inspection. Part of what is checked out is whether or not the battery is securely held down... and my battery has been relocated to the front.



Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 12:17pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Gary, you did fantastic! You kicked Bill's butt (997 GT3).

Gary kicked Bill's butt, as did I , but Bill was actually driving his V8 powered 240Z.



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 3:59pm
i need to see where the top times were but i did give it my all and was happy with the result. i wish you were there, Al. it would have been a good one

Patrick, you did do well! ...and a video would be a great way to show it...



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 4:33pm
Gary, two of your runs were awesome (58.3 and 58.5). Do
you remember what you did differently or what the "feel"
was during those runs compared to the others? Think hard
about it and try to identify the source of that feeling.
Burn that memory into your brain and keep searching for
that when you autox in the future. You did really well.

It would have been fun to drive with you or even watch
you kick butt. On Saturday I was in no shape to drive
anywhere on account of that kidney stone so I didn't even
drive to the car show at Crescent Beach. I'm *still*
suffering from a 'morphine hangover' and feel like crap.
I hate that stuff.


Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 4:39pm
btw, by my count you came in 7th place overall.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 6:26pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Gary... tough course for your car too due to the gearing and Rich's video shows that aspect a lot.

Yes, we could certainly hear the rev limiter kicking in as Rich abused, I mean drove the 914/6.  He had the luxury of being able to run the engine RPMs as high as he did.

On the other hand, I was struggling with whether or not to go for 3rd gear in at least one of the fast sections. My stock 2.8 doesn't have the ability to breathe very well much past 4000-4500 RPM. Yes, it will rev up to 5500 RPM, but it's making no power up there. The downside of going for 3rd is the messing about (and possible screwing up) of downshifting into 2nd for the upcoming sweep(s). I decided to go for it late in the day... and was quite pleased with how it felt.

I had no trouble double-clutching and downshifing quickly when it came time, and I felt that in doing so, not only did I possibly gain a tiny bit more speed (while in 3rd), but dropping the tranny suddenly into 2nd and quickly releasing the clutch just before the sweep seemed to help slow the car down in a manageable way and IMO assisted in getting the car under control through the sweep (more so than simply leaving it in 2nd the whole time). For me it was a win-win situation, and I only wished I had started doing this earlier in the day. I'll upload two videos which will hopefully demonstarte what I'm rambling on about.

Here's the course map (with a red arrow indicating where I began shifing into 3rd).



Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 8:14pm

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

Patrick, you did do well! ...and a video would be a great way to show it...

Oh, I did okay. I'm just getting tired of being passed by my ass end on a regular basis. And of course, I still have David Twitchetts' words ringing in my ears... "Get rid of those tires", referring to my Kumhos. His Subaru WRX is awfully fast out there, so he must know something of which he speaks.

I don't think I'll spring for new Dunlops (as recommended) quite yet, but talking about "spring", I definitely want to change my front ones for something stiffer for next season. These lowering springs just aren't doing it for me. They're definitely better than the stock '88 springs, but I feel that they're still not stiff enough for autocross.

Anyway, here's a couple of videos. I expermented with a different place to mount the camera and I don't like it. Too much wind noise (even with the sunroof and passenger window closed), and the perspective sucks.

First video is 3D (and/or 2D) and demonstrates how not to take a sweeper... and I use a bad word.  (In this run, I didn't upshift to 3rd gear.)

Click for video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlK3usfyBS4 - Spinout - PCA-CRW autocross - Aug 30, 2014

Second video is my last run (15th) of the day, and my fastest. I'm afraid there are a few mistakes on the timing sheets (I didn't get a 57.432 on my 10th run), and I also didn't get what was shown on the sheet for this run. It was 61.13, and I'm pretty sure I didn' t clip any cones. Notice how I upshift into 3rd in the middle of the course (just for a couple of seconds) and then back into 2nd for the sweeper. It felt good to me, and I plan to do that more in the future... unless the Johanson Garage can assist me with getting some extra top end out of this engine.  

Click for video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlhWqN6TFMQ - Best run - PCA-CWR autocross - Aug 30, 2014



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 31 August 2014 at 9:40pm
/start peanut gallery comments

Patrick, for your spin, that turn didn't leave you a lot
of room to adjust your line so my guess is you held the
tight steering angle and lifted off the throttle or kept
braking into the turn. The outcome will be a spin no
matter what. You needed to scrub off more speed before
entry.

Better tires will increase the speed you can drive before
you spin, and in this case you may have made it if you
had better tires. Then again, with better tires you'll be
going faster and you may develop a tendency to overdrive
those tires too and end up in a spin.

Ultimately, you need to drive to the limit of the tires,
no matter if they are crappy or sticky.

Now the BALANCE of the car, front to rear, is something
to think about. What is the tendency of your car in low
and medium speed turns? Understeer? Oversteer? What part
of the turn do these things happen? Can you adjust your
driving to deal with it or do you really need to tweak
the car? I love adjustable shocks for fine tuning. When
you don't have those then you're left with sway bars
(maybe) and finally, tire pressure. Soften the end you
want to stick better. If the car is tail-happy and
driving adjustments only get you so far, lose a little
rear tire pressure (adjust in 2 psi increments) and see
how it feels.

/end peanut gallery comments



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 01 September 2014 at 9:12am
i did try 3rd gear in the beginning and it did not feel right, and it later occurred to me that i was shifting too late (when i got home). the other part we all had to deal with is the change in grade of the pad. turning, while rising and falling can have an interesting effect on the car. my best times came from a lower, but more consistent throttle (still hit rev limiter) but driving a tighter line. i noticed that Rich hit the rev limiter earlier in every case. a good argument for getting on the gas sooner. a jerky steering angle around the sweepers was also something i had been doing wrong. Rich pointed it out to me early on and i did my best to correct that.
i like your videos Patrick. i may take one of mine and attempt to filter the sound a bit to see if they will show my line on one of my faster runs. my bracket is a bit shaky also..


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 01 September 2014 at 4:17pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

/start peanut gallery comments...

Peanut gallery comments are more than welcome. Some sensitive folk can't tolerate constructive criticism. I encourage it!

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Patrick, for your spin, that turn didn't leave you a lot of room to adjust your line so my guess is you held the tight steering angle and lifted off the throttle or kept braking into the turn. The outcome will be a spin no matter what. You needed to scrub off more speed before entry.

I don't believe I touched the brakes at all once I was in the sweep. I try to commit to whatever speed I'm at once I've entered a turn (after having hopefully slowed downed enough prior to entering it). However, I suspect I am guilty of lifting off on the throttle a bit too much at possibly inappropriate times (which is probably taboo for a mid/rear engined car). I often think it would be quite educational to have a second camera trained at my feet so I could see for sure what the heck I was doing at any particular time.

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

...tire pressure. Soften the end you want to stick better. If the car is tail-happy and driving adjustments only get you so far, lose a little rear tire pressure (adjust in 2 psi increments) and see how it feels.

I find it rather confusing to actually find the best tire air pressure, other than to rely on chalking the tires and/or using the little indicators on the sidewalls. I try to adjust the air pressure so the tire tread doesn't roll beyond the specified point. With the '84, 28/front and 27/rear seemed to work best. Using the same tires/wheels on the '88, it's now 33/front and 34/rear. I'm a little puzzled why the pressure needs to be so much diferent, but I attribute that to the fact that the '88 is heavier... with the bulk of that extra weight in the back (the V6 as opposed to to the 4-banger).

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Now the BALANCE of the car, front to rear, is something to think about. What is the tendency of your car in low and medium speed turns? Understeer? Oversteer? What part of the turn do these things happen? Can you adjust your driving to deal with it or do you really need to tweak the car?

Now granted the '84 with the duke didn't have the same power, but dammit, I felt comfortable going into corners. I don't feel this way with the Formula, even though it has the superior '88 factory suspension. The '84 felt much more balanced. When it started to lose traction in a turn, it would tend to just to drift sideways as opposed to having the ass end come around. Now that was after adding a rear sway bar and stiffening all four corners with two coils cut off all springs. The ride was stiff, but I loved it. The car felt predictable.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy driving the '88, but I don't feel the same measure of comfort going into corners. Yes, I may be going faster now when approaching a corner, and I certainly brake hard to slow down, but I continue to feel like I'm hanging on for dear life in every high speed turn. I enjoy the thrill, but this doesn't equate with getting around the track any faster. Despite my frustration, I am having fun. I'd just like to maximize my potential, whether that be fine tuning my driving... or my car.

I have a set of The Fiero Store's lowering springs on the '88. I like the stance, and the ride certainly isn't soft, but it's nowhere near as stiff as the '84... and I'd like it to be. I can feel the '88 rolling a bit when turning sharp and I'd like to get rid of that. There are factory sway bars front and back, with zero lash end-links and poly sway bar bushings in the front. The rear has the factory rubber bushings in the sway bar and end-links. Both cars have basically the same struts/shocks.

Gary has convinced me to change one thing at a time (so at least I'll know what has or hasn't made a difference). I'm thinking that installing stiffer springs in the front is the way to go, especially when keeping in mind the way the ass end swings around. The stiffer front springs would reduce the roll, and hopefully help to keep the rear of the car behind me where it belongs.

So Allan, please continue to comment on anything to do with my driving or of the car if you think it might be helpful. I value and appreciate everything you've had to say, and I promise my ego won't be bruised no matter what you might wish to add.



Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 01 September 2014 at 5:17pm

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

i like your videos Patrick. i may take one of mine and attempt to filter the sound a bit to see if they will show my line on one of my faster runs. my bracket is a bit shaky also..

I'm seriously considering buying a remote audio recorder, such as can be seen discussed http://www.dslrfilmnoob.com/2011/09/30/field-recorders-short-up/ - HERE .

If I get one, I plan to construct a bracket to mount by the rear license plate to hold the recorder in during autocross. I have found in the past (using those cheap little eBay thumb-sized cameras) that audio recorded back there is perfect. The sound of the engine/exhaust and squealing tires comes through loud and clear with NO wind noise. It's... beautiful.  An example from the video vault is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-ACt4-gzAs - HERE .

It's a relatively simple matter during the editing process to match up the recorded audio file to the appropriate video file. So that frees up where the camera can be mounted big time, as wind noise would no longer be an issue. Hallelujah!

 



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 01 September 2014 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

i did try 3rd gear in the beginning and
it did not feel right, and it later occurred to me that i
was shifting too late (when i got home).

Good. Keep this in mind for the future. Next time this
situation comes up you will be more aware about shift
timing.

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

the other part we all had to deal with is
the change in grade of the pad. turning, while rising and
falling can have an interesting effect on the car.

Don't I know it! Check out this short video of me
at ORP with hot tires and lifting off the throttle in a
turn that has elevation change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tO_ZST-C3E - Video
Link

Normally I catch these things but this time I didn't.
haha!


Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

my best times came from a lower, but more
consistent throttle (still hit rev limiter) but driving a
tighter line. i noticed that Rich hit the rev limiter
earlier in every case. a good argument for getting on the
gas sooner. a jerky steering angle around the sweepers
was also something i had been doing wrong. Rich pointed
it out to me early on and i did my best to correct that.

A tighter line is a shorter distance which often equates
to a lower time. You always need to balance adding
distance to requiring carrying much more speed to make up
for that extra distance.

The more times you have a clear example like this that
you experience for yourself, the better. These issues
will stick with you and what you'll find down the road is
that rather than noticing and correcting issues like this
in run #8, you will adapt in run #5...#3, etc. Soon
you'll be like other very experienced drivers where you
will recognize and adapt your driving right away.


Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 01 September 2014 at 9:31pm
Hey Patrick,

I know you want to learn so that's why the peanut gallery
spoke up. :) Kudos to you.

As my video in the post above showed, a simple lift when
you have plenty of steering wheel input is all you need
to spin. This is what you did. A lift moves the weight
transfer to the front, unloading the rear tires a bit and
then they can come loose.

That's why you want to get most of your turning done
before the apex of the turn so at the apex you are
unwinding the wheel (reducing steering demands) while
getting on the gas. Getting on the gas moves the weight
transfer to the rear, giving you more grip at the rear.
This also reduces the weight at the front, giving you
less grip up front. Good thing you are unwinding the
wheel then. Think of when you don't do this.....what
happens? Think of "understeer"; that horrible shuddering
or plowing coming out of a turn where you want to get
down the straight and are on the gas a bit but your car
isn't turning and you mow down some cones at the exit of
the sweeper.

To help control the understeer or oversteering traits of
your car in a turn, you need to fully understand these
issues. So in the case of your spin in that tight
sweeper, you had more turning to do at the start of the
spin (you didn't want to hit that cone at the exit) - so
you didn't have enough grip at the rear for that speed
and the spin showed you had plenty of grip up front (car
"oversteered"; steered too much!). The ideal line there
was to get slowed down a bit more at turn entry and get
the car rotated more during entry so you could accelerate
out of the turn. You simply carried too much speed into
the turn and lifted or coasted through the turn while
feeding in a ton of steering. The combo was too much for
your tires.

For tire pressures, you need to play with them. Generally
speaking, higher pressures are required for heavier cars,
but IIRC I ran 34psi at the rears of my car and it's
several hundred pounds heavier than yours. Factory wanted
39psi for the rear of my car for street. That wasn't
where the grip was at autox. The race track is different
and I run 38psi there with the tires I use.

Try dropping the rear pressure a few lbs.

The ideal method is to align your car and tune the tire
pressure so the temperatures are equal left/centre/right
on the tire tread under hard cornering. This shows the
tire tread on the outside tires are flat on the asphalt
in a hard corner. You need a pyrometer for this and a
helper to take the temps immediately after loading the
tires and getting them hot. I have a pyrometer.

You might be better served with a slightly stiffer front
suspension, but be careful here. A novice mistake is to
think stiffer is better. Body roll is fine, as long as it
isn't hindering your cornering. If you are hitting the
suspension bump stops in a turn, that's bad. Mild roll is
fine, and good for the undulating pavement at the
skidpad. Especially for the street and a racetrack like
ORP. Too stiff and you'll be demanding a ton from your
tires and will "skip" across undulations in the pavement,
and this lack of grip isn't good.

When I was at ORP last time, it was really hot and my
grip in the morning sucked. So I softened the shocks and
the grip went up a lot and I eventually set a new
personal best lap time. Remember what I did; I softened
the suspension!

Gary is right though. Do one thing at a time so you can
better learn how these changes affect the car. I can type
and type and type, but if you are anything like me then
you will learn best by living it rather than reading it.
Keep what I'm saying in the back of your mind and next
time you're out there, pay close attention to the car and
what it's doing, early in the day. Really learn what it's
doing. Cause and Effect kinda thing.

Cheers,
Allan


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 02 September 2014 at 3:58pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

Hey Patrick,

I know you want to learn so that's why the peanut gallery spoke up.  Kudos to you.

Wow, lots there to take in! Let me come back tonight after I've had a chance to digest it all. Thanks Al.

 



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 02 September 2014 at 4:36pm
Here are a couple more links to some runs but please turn down your speakers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9awv5Ww2lc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Le1Fjb-ofQ




Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 02 September 2014 at 5:09pm
No problem.

This is all general "performance" driving knowledge that
I've been mentioning to Gary over time but it still takes
a while for everything to gel in your head. It took me a
while!

One more example from when I was there last time:

Rich drove the 914 and felt it understeered. He couldn't
get it to turn in without plowing. Gary felt the same
way. I was a bit surprised because I thought the car was
fairly balanced.

So I adjusted the shocks to move the balance a bit so the
front had more grip (and the rear had less grip).

When I drove the car at lunch, the car sucked! It was
oversteering horribly in linked turns. So I undid my
change and put the car back the way it was.

What was going on between me and Rich? Rich asked me how
I got the car to turn in nicely when all he dealt with
was understeer.

I'll go back to my previous post about weight transfer
and grip levels front to rear.

When Rich drives the car, he has a tendency to get all
the braking done in a straight line before the turn, and
then gets off the brakes quite quickly and is back on the
gas. So what's going to happen is he enters the turn
either neutral weight or even rear-weighted. What are the
tires doing? You will have less than desired grip up
front and with a light front end (on a mid-engined car),
you will often get understeer. Not much weight on those
front tires and it's hard to turn.

What do I do? I "trailbrake" into the turn. I'll dive
into a turn, braking fairly late. By the time I'm ready
to begin my turn, I'm still going too fast to make the
turn without sliding, so I need to keep applying the
brakes. Applying the brakes moves the weight to the
front, giving more pressure to the front tires, giving
them more grip. No understeer for me and the car is
rotating just fine! But as I increase the steering input,
I'm taking away from my overall grip levels because the
car needs tire grip to turn. So as I feed in more
steering, I'm REDUCING the brake level.

Simplified summary of tire grip distribution:

Braking in a straight line: 100%
Turning: 0%

Starting turn with 10% steering
90% braking

Getting into turn with 25% steering
75% braking

Mid-turn 50% steering:
50% braking

Max turn angle 100%
0% braking - completely off brakes now because I'm using
all my potential grip to turn

Time to accelerate out of the turn, reverse of the above

Unwind wheel to 90% turn level:
10% gas

Unwind wheel to 50% steering
50% gas

Out of turn at 0% steering input
100% gas

That kind of thing.

For Gary's car, I'd rather it be set up the way I drive
it because I believe (and so does every car manufacturer
that sells cars in countries that have lawyers) an
understeering car is safer. You don't want to make an
emergency maneuver on the highway to avoid some debris
and end up in a spin! Also, if you have to make an
emergency turn to avoid something, chances are you'll
instinctively lift off the throttle or get on the brakes
and then turn the wheel - an understeering car responds
perfectly to this situation.

One other thing: when I first autocrossed my GT3 I was
understeering everywhere because I drove it wrong. I was
overslowing for a turn and then back on the gas at the
start of a turn, when I wanted to rotate the car. It's
very hard to turn a 911 when only 1/3 of the overall
weight is at the front and you are artificially making
that be even less because you're on the gas at turn
entry. So I'd be plowing through cones all the time. Race
like crazy to the next turn - and mow down more cones. It
was brutal. It wasn't until I understood weight transfer
and how it affects grip levels that I finally drove the
car better.

Weight transfer is key. Understand how that works and how
it affects grip levels and you're well on your way.


Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 02 September 2014 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

Here are a couple more links to some runs
but please turn down your speakers...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=e9awv5Ww2lchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Le1Fjb-ofQ


Cool!

My ears are bleeding and I feel sea-sick, but cool!



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 02 September 2014 at 7:53pm

ya.. sorry about the noise. I promise I will work on that


Rich was keenly interested in how I was driving and carefully watched what I was doing. when it was his turn, he performed maneuvers with the car I did not seem were do-able. by the end of the day, I had applied some bits here and there. he drove it well.
the mid engine design car (Fieros, etc..), I believe can be set up well but the driver is indeed the biggest variable. we all need to get out there and apply what we know and be observant.

we had old American muscle, all wheel drive, and even an old Volvo there, all swaying to those cones in their own ways. they all were impressive in their own ways. (and if you are still reading this and it does not sound like Bla, Bla, Bla.. then please consider coming to the next event. all these words can be boiled down to some simple things that will help anybody drive more soundly) it is fun stuff!



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 02 September 2014 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

...when it was {Rich's} turn, he performed
maneuvers with the car I did not seem were do-able. by
the end of the day, I had applied some bits here and
there. he drove it well.

Rich is a great driver. He has great balance when it
comes to drifting too. I suck by comparison. lol!

Originally posted by karnak karnak wrote:

...(and if you are still reading this and
it does not sound like Bla, Bla, Bla.. then please
consider coming to the next event. all these words can be
boiled down to some simple things that will help anybody
drive more soundly) it is fun stuff!

Indeed! The other key benefit is that the average
speed of autocross is about 60km/h so the car control
skills you learn here are directly applicable to city
street driving. Skills you learn here can save your
bacon!


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 04 September 2014 at 1:27pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

The other key benefit is that the average speed of autocross is about 60km/h...

...which is why the BCCC autocross a few weeks ago was rather invigorating when we were entering the stop box at 115 km/h!

Al, you've gone over a ton of helpful stuff. Thanks so much.  I often wish there was a way of having a sweeper set up at a track and then just do that one sweeper over and over and over again until it feels just right. The UBCSCC Autocross 101 which I've taken a couple of times sort of does that, but I'd love to find an abandoned parking lot somewhere out the middle of nowhere and just turn up there with a number of cones. I think that's what it'll take for all this information to actually sink in.

Gary commented that Rich seems to plays tricks with his feet while driving the course. He uses his left foot to brake so as to reserve his right foot for GO duty. Is there some value to learning this technique, or is there a danger of over-complicating things?

One thing I haven't mentioned during any of this discussion of my handling issues is the fact that I've never had the wheels properly aligned on my Formula at a shop.  You may now wonder.. "What the heck!" Keep in mind that Colby and I did a rough alignment (to the best of our ability), but the reason why I didn't take it to a shop is that I wanted to finalize my choice of suspension components first. Among other things (ball joints/struts/shocks/zero-lash end links/sway bar poly bushings) I put lowering springs in, which are a heck of a lot better the factory springs, but as I've mentioned previously, I'm not 100% satisfied with them. Call me thifty/cheap/frugal, but I didn't want to be spending $100+ for alignment more times than necessary. Once I decide for sure what I want to stick with, I'll take the car to a shop and have everything set to specs. That just might improve the handling.



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 04 September 2014 at 7:46pm
There is a way to have you do a sweeper over and over
again, but it'll cost you a lot of money to book the
track.

I do have about 20 cones....

Re: left foot braking: IMHO, don't bother. It's a skill
that takes a long time to learn properly. Over the years
of driving you have done, you have developed a super
sensitive touch to your right foot when on the gas and
brakes. Your left foot just goes in/out on the clutch.
The time it takes to develop a sensitive left foot can be
quite long.

Some modern cars like mine (2004), don't respond well to
left foot braking. You can go on the brakes for about a
second or two before the fuel is cut off. So trying to
use both pedals for any length of time won't work on a
newer car.

Kids who grow up racing carts learn left foot braking at
a young age and can carry that skill to race cars and do
extremely well. They will be faster than an old fart like
me or you. So I don't know. I haven't bothered to
learn it but thinking about it more, you may want to play
with it if you're curious. Try it when you drive to work,
but with nobody close behind you. lol!

That pro autox guy I mentioned a while back said that if
an experienced autox driver tried to learn left foot
braking, expect to be slow for a full year before seeing
any benefit. This is also with a much longer racing
season that you are currently running now (and tons of
practice on the street).

Yes, getting alignments can be costly. Make some
decisions and get it sorted, man!


Posted By: Capt Fiero
Date Posted: 05 September 2014 at 1:49pm
I have kept quite in these autocross threads, but thought this to be slightly funny. If you grew up driving in the 60's/70's or just had older cars in the 80s you probably got experience with left foot braking when you came to a stop on a cold day. Fighting to keep that carb'ed car from stalling at stop lights. One foot slightly on the gas and left food modulating the brake as you came to a stop.

      I also read on another autocross group of some of the problems with left foot braking, can be loss of engine vacuum. If your right foot never comes off the gas, especially in turbo cars, (yes even with boost check valves) you may not close the throttle enough for the engine to make enough vacuum to replenish the brake boosters vacuum supply. Then losing your brakes. IIRC a number of years ago there was a woman in a Corvette at the Boundary Bay area lost control of her car and lost braking, either went into the crowd or staging area, I can't completely remember the details.   

So just a few things to think about when it comes to left foot braking.

-------------
Capt Fiero
88 Fiero GT 5spd V6
Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd.


Posted By: Rich Sandor
Date Posted: 05 September 2014 at 4:26pm
Quote Gary commented that Rich seems to plays tricks
with his feet while driving the course. He uses his
left foot to brake so as to reserve his right foot for
GO duty. Is there some value to learning this
technique, or is there a danger of over-complicating
things?


The hardest part for me was remembering to go back to
normal braking when entering the stop box. Otherwise
your left foot is committed to the brakes and there's
no way to clutch in... = stall!

It takes time to learn, for sure, and for ME, it is
faster. However I have seen data for GT drivers in the
same car, getting the same times with and without
LFB.. however I'm not sure either was going as fast as
humanly possible. The advantage is multiplied on a
course with more corners (like autox) and not as
noticeable on a course with few corners. However, I
still think LFB has the potential to be faster.

It's undeniably advantageous on older cars with big
turbo lag..

I mostly wanted to weigh in because on the previous
autocross I was bitching about Gary's 9146
understeering, but I didn't have the problem this time
around. I noticed Al mention that perhaps I wasn't
trail-braking.. the thing I realized is that I *was*
trail-braking, but I was starting too late and
carrying too much speed.. the car just wouldn't turn
in.

This time I was braking earlier and smoother and that
let me carry more momentum into the corners.


Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 06 September 2014 at 12:40pm

Originally posted by AllanJ AllanJ wrote:

I do have about 20 cones....

Gary and I will keep our eyes open for a large abandoned paved area.  I'm sure Colby would be delighted to suggest some locations as well, but Saskatchewan is a bit far to go for autocross practice.

 



Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 06 September 2014 at 12:48pm

Originally posted by Rich Sandor Rich Sandor wrote:

The hardest part for me was remembering to go back to normal braking when entering the stop box. Otherwise your left foot is committed to the brakes and there's no way to clutch in... = stall!

...

Hey Rich, welcome to our little corner of the automotive universe.

I don't recall seeing you doing the left foot braking when driving my Fiero during course setup/testing. Were you doing it, and I simply missed it, or is left foot braking something you only do in cars you're familar with?



Posted By: Rich Sandor
Date Posted: 06 September 2014 at 7:32pm
I was doing it in the Fiero. I LFB in any car that I'm
racing. (no need in street car..)

And the newer cars respond quite well to it - as long as
you're not trying to overlap too much throttle w/ gas. I
LFB in the new corvettes and 911s and it doesn't upset
the computers at all.



Posted By: Patrick
Date Posted: 07 September 2014 at 1:21pm

Originally posted by Rich Sandor Rich Sandor wrote:

I was doing it in the Fiero. I LFB in any car that I'm racing.

You're smooth Rich, very smooth... I didn't even notice.  Of course, when you were piloting the Fiero while we were testing the course, it's no surprise that I wasn't staring into the driver's side footwell. I was more interested in where we were headed.

I'm curious about trying out this left foot braking now. I'll see whether an old dog can learn a new trick.

 



Posted By: karnak
Date Posted: 08 September 2014 at 9:42pm
Welcome Rich!
as you can see, your run made the best video for quality, although not your fastest run by far, but does show a nice line and driving skill. i enjoyed watching the car go around.

i really had a great time!



Posted By: AllanJ
Date Posted: 20 September 2014 at 8:43pm
Hi Rich!

Thanks for jumping in. I was going from a combo of an
obviously foggy memory when you drove a different time
with me in the car and then some theories.

I forget how long it takes to cut the fuel in my car
if you are braking. Didn't seem that long when I tried
it. I trailbrake a lot but then again, I'm also used
to longer turns at a racetrack right now so my sense
of timing is probably biased towards that, and not the
shorter turns in autox.

Patrick, keep us posted on what you do. I'm always
curious.

Cheers,
Allan



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