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Suspension Change |
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Romeo 
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Joined: 16 November 2008 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3033 |
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 Topic: Suspension ChangePosted: 21 February 2011 at 6:04pm |
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How difficult is it to change from 84-87 suspension to 88 suspension? Especially the front, if that happens to be the easier of the two. I ask because there seems to be a huge difference between pricing for shocks for the 88's versus everything else, specifically with the Koni's. Any help would be appeciated. |
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Dawg
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Joined: 15 August 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 988 |
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Posted: 21 February 2011 at 9:30pm |
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There has been much talk about the Fiero front suspension. Many say the best was the 87 not the 88. Changing to the 88 front will mean you need to find the mostly unavailable cartridge bearings if you ever have bearing problems. Not a wise move I don't think.
The 88 rear suspension is the best of course. Basically a cradle swap is all that is needed. Hub to hub cradle swap that is. The Dawg |
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Romeo
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Posted: 21 February 2011 at 11:40pm |
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I only ask because the Koni yellows are still in stock at WestCoastFiero, for cheaper (Somehow) than the inferior Koni reds. If possible, I'd much prefer to run Koni Yellows at all four corners. Although I'm aware that bearing jobs will be significantly more expensive, as I'm at the grace of Rodney Dickman or The Fiero Store, it is a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the suspension I want, if it's feasible without completely redoing the entire front end. But yes, you do bring up a good point for anyone else who may have considered such a change: 88's arn't as fun to find bearings for.
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Colby
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Joined: 30 March 2009 Location: Abbotsford/Sask Status: Offline Points: 666 |
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 12:26am |
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Have you considered buying Koni reds for the front then getting them revalved to match the yellows? Seems like it'd be an awful lot of work to replace your entire front suspension just so you can use a particular kind of shock.
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88 Formula 5 speed
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kharmata
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 11:14am |
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Are there any differences from 86 to 87 front suspension?
Or is 84-87 all the same? |
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Romeo
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 12:27pm |
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That is an utterly brilliant point, now that you bring it up. But then again, I'm not sure it will do what I want without extensive modification to the shock. The difference between the Koni yellows and the Koni reds is individual manipulation of jounce (Resistance compressing the shock) and rebound (Resistance decompressing the shock) at all four corners. Koni reds are only adjustable for static stiffness (Meaning the one dial affects both jounce and rebound) and the reds can only be adjusted on the rear. I'll talk to my boss, see if it's possible to drill in to them and install valving allowing for tuning of both settings.
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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CFoss
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 1:29pm |
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I have an 88 rear in my car.
The required stuff is:
88 cradle 88 v6 engine mount (front), or a pre 88 can be modified coil over kit (smaller springs are required) and camber relocate kit (I bought this from ht moto. Slightly reroute coolant lines due to trailing arms
Rebend rear brake lines (Carefully!) You can't run really small wheels (14's) and clear the 88 rear brakes
Here's a link to some swap stuff http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/106223.html
Was it worth it? Hell yes...changer the car 100%. I have a complete 88 front too. It looks like a much more daunting task. I may do it one day, but not right now. It involves a lot of cutting and welding and precision locating.
Chay |
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86 SE 3.4
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Romeo
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 1:34pm |
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Hm... Damn, not what I was hoping to hear. Well then, does anyone know if my desire to run Cheese's plan could be done as extensively as I'm hoping? I don't have work this week and being young and impatient, would like to know what my options (If any) are to bring in to work on Monday. And thank you to Dawg, Cheese and Chay for taking the time to help me out so far! |
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Dawg
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 5:06pm |
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There is another option of course. They're only shocks after all. Just change the mounts to 88 styled mounts. Done.
The Dawg |
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Romeo
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 8:17pm |
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That's what I've been looking at, actually (Great minds think alike, eh? I'm glad someone else thinks that's a good idea though, because I was horribly nervous about the idea at first. |
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Dawg
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Posted: 22 February 2011 at 10:17pm |
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Other than the obvious "make the mounts strong enough" there is one thing to be very careful about. Make sure that there is no way that the shock can bottom out when the suspension does if you know what I mean.
It can be hard to tell just how much the suspension can compress if the right conditions are present. (ie. Dukes of Hazzard type of jumping) If the shock ever gets "pinched" it's toast. I've installed custom shock mounts for 4X4's. I had to modify a mount once that had been put in the wrong place for such a long after market unit. He wrecked 6 shocks that weekend at 600 bucks a pop! Ouch ouch and friggen ouch. So I would estimate the suspensions throw and leave an extra half inch of space to be safe. One way to figure this out is to take a measurement of the original shock before you remove it. Take a measurement from some hard point to the bottom of the shock when fully compressed. Then you can hack and weld to you hearts content because you can always check again before you finish the welds. Cheers, The Dawg |
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Romeo
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Posted: 23 February 2011 at 1:10am |
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Thanks for the tips, I read the first part and almost gave up on the theory all together! As for the strength of the metal, would 3/8 plate aluminum be strong enough? Or do you think I should be picking up titanium instead? |
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Dawg
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Posted: 23 February 2011 at 12:14pm |
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I didn't see a smiley on the question so I will assume you're serious.
Use plain old mild steel, then you can simply weld right to the car rather than using bolts. Depending on the situation I would start with 3/16 plate steel. Maybe even 1/8" material. Look at the thickness of the A arms themselves. Not very thick but shaped for strength. Use what is already there to guide you. The Dawg |
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beken
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Posted: 23 February 2011 at 2:24pm |
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Careful with this. The mounting points for the shocks and struts are at different angles on the 88's. It looks like a lot of work to extend that mount point for the rear shocks further in towards the engine bay.
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 Beken (aka Ken) - bekentech@westcoastfieros.com Original and still the owner of an 85SE 2M6 4spd |
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Romeo
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Posted: 23 February 2011 at 2:25pm |
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My hesitation with steel is three fold though: Steel corrodes, leading to the possibility of pushing the shock up through the plate as it's intergrity falters. Steel is heavy, and that weight is located as high up as it can go back there (As well as unsprung weight down low), and yet, steel offers no more strength than titanium. Lastly, and perhaps oddly (For most people), I find steel incredibly hard to weld in comparison to aluminum and titanium. I have a habit of, uh, cleaving clean through it with the electrode. lol
Never-the-less, if you suggest steel, steel it shall be, and I'll just try and absolutely coat the thing in an epoxy primer to inhibit rust as much as is practical/possible. |
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Romeo
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Posted: 28 February 2011 at 1:33pm |
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I have finally got my answer from Chris of WestCoastFiero: '88s are identical in the rear to '86 (Strut-wise), although it was actually at his behest I went away from the Koni yellows and back to the Koni reds. According to him, the yellows are valved to sync up optimally with a spring rate of 400 pounds per inch and up, whereas the reds find their sweet spot between 250 and 350. Sealing the deal was the fact the reds on the rear are adjusted identically to the yellows, contrary to Koni's description. |
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Car-2-Lo
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Posted: 28 February 2011 at 2:29pm |
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What are your overall plans now ?
This spring I'm installing bump-steer suspension, I already have WCF coil-over kit with KYB and 300 springs and want to change to 400 or 450 springs( so it won't bottom out), does that mean Koni reds won't handle 400 and up springs ? |
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Johnny-B-Good
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Romeo
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Posted: 28 February 2011 at 3:40pm |
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They will, but the yellows are better suited to it. Yellows are race models, reds are just performance models. If you arn't running an '88 front end, you don't have much choice in the matter, unless you want to completely re-do the front end.
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Romeo
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Posted: 01 March 2011 at 8:08pm |
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And now asking for some experience on the matter, I figured while I'm playing around with the suspension, I might as well replace the bushings. Does anyone know if it's worth the extreme cost for the delrin type? Or should I just stick with polyurethane?
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Never shift into reverse without a back-up plan.
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Capt Fiero
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Posted: 01 March 2011 at 8:51pm |
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Go with the poly, the derlin is great for the track, but is so hard, it kills ball joints, tie rods and your back.
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Capt Fiero
88 Fiero GT 5spd V6 Eight Fifty Seven GT V8 5spd. |
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Cheese wrote:
