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orange View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Engine swap problems
    Posted: 26 October 2010 at 8:08pm
I have some problems that are bothering me...
these problems are not really hindering the engine and
how it runs but i want to check them out... i have a
couple
Its a 4.9 swap with stock computer with rockcrawl chip
and a cam and slightly bigger valve train. Engine sat for
7 years!

Problem 1: When the car has been rinning for about a
couple of mins the crank case breather starts smoking
(steaming?) and it is enough to worry me, i know what it
is, but should it be doing it a lot with an engine that
sat for a long time? Or are my rings bad?

Problem 2: There is a very small amount of black smoke
out the back, running rich is my though, but why?? Could
the chip be programed to increase air fuel ratio for the
cam? The smoke is barely enough to worry but still...

Problem 3: When the car has been running for a short
time, and i stand close to the engine (not really near
exhaust) my eyes burn severely. There is some smoke
(white) coming
from the engine compartment. I have tried to trace this
smoke but its like its coming out of no where. It comes
up the two sides of the engine (bank 1 and 2) but is not
under the exhaust manifolds and there is no type of fluid
anywhere near them. The manifolds were painted and had
new gaskets, is that whats burning?

Problem 4: May be a minor one but when i jump the car
with another one to start it, no mater what kind of car,
i have to let it charge for 5 mins before trying to
start. Do i just have a starter that takes a ton of
energy to turn? Or a loop in the circuit?

Problem 5: CLUTCH!! Ive bled the clutch 100 times and the
air doesnt want to leave. Or the clutch is stuck or
something? I know they can get stuck, my dads did... but
his is a liquid filled trany/bellhousing so the clutch is
in fluid. Could my be stuck, if so how the heck do i
unstick it?

Thanks for sticking with me! I am looking for short
simple answers mostly (unless it calls for a big one),
thats why i have so many questions in one posting. Any
help WILL HELP. Answer one or all... or none i dont care
just give me your input please.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2010 at 8:30pm
Cam is a 282, also have some steam type stuff floating
gently out the throttle body when recently turned off
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dawg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 12:02am
I'm reading your list and I'm getting the impression you're running WAY too rich.  This will wash the cylinder walls and cause ring damage over time.  It could in severe cases push fuel fumes into the crank case and sting your eyes after leaving the breather.

I have seen this many times way back in the old days while playing around with jets in race engines.

You definitely have blow by issues.  Blow by is usually worse when the engine is cold.  After warm up things are tighter and less prone to leaking.

If my theory is true you need to get this dealt with.  You might have already contaminated your oil.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 7:19am
Couple times now we found an easy cause for running rich -- use ONLY a genuine GM/AC-Delco O2 sensor! (or sensorS if you run duals)
No logical explanation for it, but all the aftermarkets we tried (on two cars!) failed to read.

If it sat for a long time, and you're only starting it in short spurts (a BAD thing BTW) without it fully heating up, you'll get lots of blowby for a few hundred miles probably.

Manifolds + heat + paint = smoke.  Simple math.

Starting issue; a regular 500cca or better battery should zip that thing to life easily.  You probably have a bad ground, or a bad battery terminal.  Make SURE you hooked up a 'battery light' in the alternator circuit (like the one in the stock dash) or your alternator won't charge.  It looks for the resistance of the bulb.

Clutch; describe the actual symptoms.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 9:39am

Problem #1...is the blowby white or dark. If it's rings, my experience has been that it will be black/oily. If it's white...could be condensed water (No problem, just takes time to clear) or coolant leaking internally somewhere (Longshot, but possible). Give it time and see if it changes.

 

Problem #2. Likely rich idle, I agree. If it does this when worm (worm? warm), you might look into it further. When cold, this is somewhat expected. Check your plugs for carbon build up at your first oil change. If none, forget about it.

 

P3: Sounds like paint. Not a great smell.

 

P4: Do you men that you need to leave two batteries connected for 5 minute before it will start? If so, this is indicitive of a very weak battery. What happens is that the weak one in your car will consume the available current from the jump battery, and the car will therefore not start due to lack of supply. After time the car battery will charge somewhat, allowing the charge battery to turn the engine over.

 

Do not continue this situation. The excessive chaerge current into the weak battery is similar to a short circuit and will cause a large buildup of heat, which could lead to explosion. Replace the battery, or just use your 'jump' battery by itself.

 

P5: Cluthes hydraulics are murder on these cars. Remove the slave. Pop off the rubber end plug, push in the plunger and look for corosion in the cylinder bore. If any, you need a new slave. There is a special bleed procedure as well. Park on an incline, crack the bleeder. Wait for pure fluid to run out. Then , with the bleeder open, vice grip the push rod and push it back into the cylinder. Fluid WILL squirt out. SLOWLY allow the push rod to slide back out. Maintain positive flow out of the bleeder. When the rod is fully out, close the bleeder. This will purge and air bubbles trapped in the cylinder.

On the master end, pull the rubber on the pushrod and look for fluid. If any, replace the master.

I didn't get a good clutch until I replaced the master and slave. Just the way it goes.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dawg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 10:02am
I would add that you can make sure the drivers side of the car is higher than the passenger side while you bleed.  Then at the end of your bleed, tap the slave with a small hammer lightly to dislodge and remaining bubbles.  This way there is no need to play with the push rod, which if done incorrectly, can add air.

When I did the push rod trick I had someone pump the clutch pedal for me while I held the push rod.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 3:53pm
Thank you so much!! Ok ill address your comments and
questions now...

Problem 1: the blow by is white... and seems to only exit
the bank close to the trunk.

Problem 2: I am running a bosch o2 sensor so i will try a
delco one, also i retarded the timing (i think, i turned
it counterclock wise) and the black smoke almost completely went away.

Problem 3: I guess im settling that its paint burning off

Problem 4: Battery light in alternator circut... yes but
i need to confirm i did it right, where exactly does the
little red wire go?

Problem 5: My master is leaking slightly but it always
has, ever since i bought the car... maybe 3 drops from
all the bleeding. Im planning on upgrading the master
soon... should i just do that now?


Other comments to add...
-when the car has been on and warmed up (maybe 5 mins
after the blow by starts a lot) i turn off the car and it
just doesnt want to start right up again...
-Clutch- when bled the pedal feels light the first half
but completely normal the second half
-would you guys recommend just running it for a long time
like 30 mins?
-check engine light on but the cods wont flash... i jump
a and b but the light stays lit. someone told me, with a
chipped ecm the light wont go off, you just have to check
for codes... i dont really believed that

I want these problems cleaned up, and thank you so much
for the time! If you need any clarification i can just
shoot a video and post it really easy.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 6:02pm
Did you do a comp check on the engine? Any problems found?

"-when the car has been on and warmed up (maybe 5 mins
after the blow by starts a lot) i turn off the car and it
just doesnt want to start right up again... "

Describe exactly what this is...fires on and off, completely dead, raw fuel smell, etc...

As far as whether to run it for longer...if it was mine I would. It can only do three things...get better, worse or stay the same. My rational is if the cylinder is scored it's a teardown and bore out anyway, so running it a bit more shouldn't hurt. If it's condensation it will clear up when the engine crankcase finally warms up fully(This takes longer than the coolant by quite a while).

As far as timing goes, did you check your marks are correct for tdc (I prefer the screwdriver method)? I'm not sure how advanced timing could cause incomplete combustion (Black smoke). Maybe others can advise on that.

Chay


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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 6:10pm
I have not done a compression test. And describing the
problem... when i turn it off and try to start it again
soon it will turn over and fire a lot but then stop just
before it would start and then i stopped trying and came
here. And for the timing, i did not time it with a light,
just by idle and what felt the best while reving, the
timming is way off from stock anyway because the cam.
right?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 6:16pm
Cam spec has zero to do with ignition timing.

Don't set it by ear - you just can't do that.

It probably isn't wanting to fire now since it's half flooded.  These flood easily.

BS on the 'check engine always on'.  There's something there.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 6:28pm
Ok i guess ill time it now and see where that gets me. And
yeah the check engine light thing i thought BS too, any
thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 7:56pm
Something massively wrong!!! This is bad, and now im
scared. Ill explain exactly what happened .When i let it
run for 20 25 mins i was messing with the timing
slightly, and got it almost right when i started to pay
attention to the blow by and it actually stopped but
there was huge deposits of fluid on the lip of the
breather and it was clear and smell strange (like a very
week gas smell) and after a couple seconds the blow by
started coming out the breather with the pcv on it! And i
though it was strange so i was going to turn it off, when
i herd something and i looked under the car and there was
coolant leaking out of some hoses. I shut it off and was
like, crap i didnt tighten the hoses enough, and seeing
that everything else seamed to be fine i was going to try
and start it again. I turned it over maybe one or two
times, stopped, and panicked when i herd a sucking
whistle noise coming from the throttle body, it sounded
like air was being sucked in. And after i looked under
the car i herd the same noise coming from a coolant hose
clamp. Something very wrong is happening, head
gasket? internals?? I have a limited source of money and
if this problem is major then i can forget about this
project, or forget about it being done till spring if im
lucky HELP!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Romeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 9:42pm
You said the expelled gasses are white, do they smell somewhat sweet? If so, check your coolant levels - you may have a coolant leak on top of everything else...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 10:35pm
The gasses are white, but dont smell sweet, smell more like
a bit of gas mixed with spray paint or acetone or
something. and coolant levels in the reservoir havent
really changed. Oh and before i tried to start it again i
opened the cap on the radiator and had some vacuum on it
but not much. So could it be a head gasket? Ill check the
oil tomorrow and see what it looks like. I drained a drop
and it seemed to be a little lighter brown and a bit
thicker.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dawg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2010 at 11:40pm
Ok buddy....first things first.  Pull ALL your spark plugs out and do a compression test.  If you have something funky going on this will show it.  Do each cylinder dry and then put 2 or 3 squirts of engine oil in the hole and test it again.  Mark all this down and get back to us.

I agree, sounds bad but lets try and figure out how bad.  Your oil could be so contaminated with fuel by now that it's too thin to do it's job.  Lifters could be malfunctioning and so on.

Compression values should tell us if you need to put her away for the winter.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CFoss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2010 at 10:15am

This is so weird. It does sound like head gasket to me, like the coolant is getting into the combustion chamber. This would account for the black exhaust. I had a intake manifold leak on a v6 chrysler which did a similar thing, only what it did was feed oil and coolant into one of the intake passages. My exhaust had a bit of a sweet smell, and brownish water coming out.

I'm trying to figure out how it could get into your pcv system though. Perhaps there are 2 things messing with you. 

On the pcv, to sort this out...most pcv systems have an air 'source' tapped off the clean side of the air cleaner which goes to one side of the engine, then the other side (With the pcv valve) goes to the manifold for vaccuum.

When you are seeing the fluid, are these lines disconnected (IE pressure from inside the crankcase) or is the fluid being drawn up by the engine vaccuum?

How does your oil look on your dipstick??? Is it a milkshake (White, showing water ingress)??

Do you have a coolant line which goes to your throttle body for heating?

 

Chay

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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2010 at 10:32am
For the pcv system, i have a filter on one valve cover and
a pcv valve to a filter on the other... is this wrong?
My oil is not milky but looks a little lighter than the
usual dark brown used oil look and is feels thinner. And i
dont have a coolant line to the throttle body.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Romeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2010 at 12:21pm
Hmm... I'm not saying Damien and I are wrong, but I don't think either of us have nailed it, given what you've said recently. If fuel and oil were mixing, you'd be puking black or blue smoke, not white. If oil and coolant were mixing, you'd notice the the coolant would be dark and chunky looking, and the oil would be light and chunky looking. However, in small doses, we could both be right, as an O2 sensor woefully out of range will set a code (Especially if raw fuel was sealed with coolant on the sensor itself) which would explain your CEL being illuminated. This would also mean Doc's theory would be validated as well (O2 problem). Your best bet would be to grab a scan tool and check the actual voltages of everything in question, especially when the car is puking white and the CEL is illuminated.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote orange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2010 at 1:09pm
So i really dont know what to do at this point, Should i do
a compression test and then start tearing it down? or
should I just change the oil, o2 sensor, and see what
happens?
I have noticed a somewhat thick layer of pure black oily
feeling stuff under the throttle body blades that wasnt
there before. Also i did a burn test on a sample of the oil
thats in there and it did not really catch on fire, but it
did pop and crackle a bit with some flames, i did the test
to normal oil (thinking the dirt on the ground was
lighting) and no flames, and i did it sample of coolant and
it did not burn, so does that confirm gas in my oil?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dr.Fiero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2010 at 1:31pm
I'd start thus:
Cure the (probable) problem making it rich - Non GM O2 sensor.
Pull the plugs, clean and dry them.
Change the oil (sounds like you washed the cylinders and got gas in the oil) and filter.
You COULD do a compression test at this point, but I bet it'll come up uneven and low until you do a wet test.

Put it all back together.

Set the timing with a light (making sure it's in bypass mode).

Cross whatever you've got (fingers etc).

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